The Odyssey Chats at Ancient Sites
Odyssey Chat Transcripts
Greek and Roman Mythology Pages from Ancient Sites by Tracy Marks
NOTE: Many Community members of "Athens" at Ancient Sites (which folded in 1999) participated in biweekly chats on the classics, including the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. Later, several of us continued with the chats, studying The Metamorphoses by Ovid and other texts related to ancient Greek and Roman history. Many of these chats have been posted online by Tracy Marks (alias Torrey Philemon from Ancient Sites). Each participant maintains his/her own copyright; this material may not be reproduced.
ODYSSEY CHAT FOUR
11:59 Ricardex
Cornelius: Hello.
12:00 maia
Nestor: Hello...
12:00 Ricardex
Cornelius: I am dropping by to give encouragement and the like...
12:00 maia
Nestor: I got a gram from Torrey who said she probably wasn't going
to make it.
12:01 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello everyone.
12:01 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well i wil post another notice at forum that the group is
about to start.
12:01 Petra
Stuyvesant: Ricardex, thanks for letting me know about the FB book
poll.
12:01 maia
Nestor: Hi Petra...
12:01 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hi Maia!
12:02 Petra
Stuyvesant: I can only stay until a little after 2 pm, my husband is
babysitting until then, have to get back home so he can go out.
12:03 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
12:03 maia
Nestor: Well, hopefully it won't run past then. I, too, have a gazillion
things to do.
12:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well I hope you get some folks in, i myself have to run,am
preparing a meal.
12:04 maia
Nestor: Well, we'll give it a few, Ric.
12:05 Petra
Stuyvesant: I like you new banner Maia, did you make it yourself?
12:05 maia
Nestor: Oh no...I'm hopeless at that stuff. Hetaira Lysias made it
for me.
12:06 Petra
Stuyvesant: Very dramatic, I like that!
12:08 Ricardex
Cornelius: The site is becoming more artistic, you should visit the
site of the of Medicine Man Yupaniqui
12:08 Ricardex
Cornelius: he has sound.....
12:08 maia
Nestor: She is immensely talented.
12:08 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think Petronilla said she'd try to attend today.
12:08 Hetaira Lysias enters...
12:08 Ricardex
Cornelius: hello.
12:08 Hetaira
Lysias: Hola folks!
12:08 maia
Nestor: Speak of the devil...
12:09 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello Hetaira
12:09 Hetaira
Lysias: Geez, my ears are burning. *wry grin*
12:09 Petra
Stuyvesant: I like tha banner you made for Maia
12:09 maia
Nestor: Petra just asked me about my patron ad...
12:09 Hetaira
Lysias: Devil? Hardly. :)
12:09 maia
Nestor: Okay okay, speak of the hetaira...
12:10 Hetaira
Lysias: Thanks P, I thought I'd try my hand at animated gifs, maia's
turned out pretty good despite my best efforts. ;)
12:11 Petra
Stuyvesant: I want to learn how to make those (animated gifs)
they look fun
12:12 Hetaira
Lysias: Well, I used Ulead's animation factory, it's pretty user friendly
and you can tweak with it for 30 days free before you have to purchase
it. I can dig up an URL if you like. :)
12:12 Ricardex
Cornelius: We are getting a new person applying now to join your chat,
hold on and i will let them in.
12:12 Petra
Stuyvesant: Thanks!
12:13 maia
Nestor: Okay...well, we do need a few more people, don't you think?
Or should we be Zen, the sound of one hand clapping and all that?
12:13 Hetaira
Lysias: I saw your AS page from a post on Arachne I think, I love the
background your using...that pearls and lace pattern...where did you find
it?
12:14 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
12:14 Petra
Stuyvesant: I just let my friend Alwyn know we are starting, I don't
know if he's gotten my gram
12:14 Hetaira
Lysias: Well, in all candor, I'm only on 15 at the moment, so I'll
be faking dialogue for anything about 16. *sheepish grin*
12:14 Ricardex
Cornelius: The person is now admitted
12:14 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hetaira, that's from Moyra's web jewels moyra.com simple
url I think
12:15 Hetaira
Lysias: But book 13 I can discuss at length. *grin*
12:15 Ricardex
Cornelius: Gorgo Cleomenes i snew person.
12:15 maia
Nestor: If past chats are any indication, we'll be lucky if we get
past the first book.
12:15 Hetaira
Lysias: Oooh great, I'll hafta go check her page out, thanks.
12:16 maia
Nestor: ICQ crashed on me about an hour ago, H, and can't get back
on.
12:16 Hetaira
Lysias: THAT would explain why your ignoring me M, I was about to take
it personally.
12:18 maia
Nestor: I clicked on to send you a message, actually, and my comp winked
out! rebooted all by itself. And now it won't let me on at all.
12:18 Hetaira
Lysias: Your ghost just dropped off ICQ, btw, m
12:18 Gorgo Cleomenes enters...
12:18 Hetaira
Lysias: Gotta love ICQ, free and worth every penny.
12:19 Petra
Stuyvesant: So, does ICQ stand for "I Seek You"?
12:19 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Greetings, group.
12:19 Hetaira
Lysias:
Hola Gorgo, pleesedtomeetcha
12:19 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello Gorgo
12:19 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Indeed, Hetaira. Likewise.
12:19 Ioannis Nestor enters...
12:20 maia
Nestor: Gorgo!
12:20 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeppers P, ain't it cute? I seek you, I get knocked off you,
I watch my messages spin for days...like I said, worth every penny.
12:20 maia
Nestor: And now Ioannis! The Wanax himself!
12:20 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Shhh, Maia.
12:20 Ioannis
Nestor: Greetings everybody!
12:20 Petra
Stuyvesant: Ioannis!!! I kneel at your feet in gratitude! Thanks
to you I can apply for my group. Glad to see you.
12:21 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
12:21 maia
Nestor: LOL, H! I don't know if you folks know, but Torrey grammed
and said she was going to go to sleep...
12:21 maia
Nestor: What is your group, Petra?
12:21 Ioannis
Nestor: Nice to see you Maia, Petra and everybody else! What's up?
12:21 Hetaira
Lysias: Sleep is for sissies...I have coffee, thanks. ;)
12:21 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well gang I have to run the demands of preparing a
Sunday meal cal, enjoy!
12:21 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Bye Ricardex.
12:22 Hetaira
Lysias: Tootles Ric. *waving*
12:22 Ricardex Cornelius exits...
12:22 Petra
Stuyvesant: New game/group I'm calling True Seekers, they mention it
in this weeks AS news. Game based on Letterboxing in the real world.
Hide and Seek online really. Based my graphics on my Odyssey mindset
too, boat in the ocean, nautical theme :^)
12:23 Hetaira
Lysias: I always thought you could have a helluva scavenger hunt here....sounds
like fun P. :)
12:23 Ioannis
Nestor: Petra, it sounds very interesting (not like that lousy Cup)!
12:24 maia
Nestor: Well, do you think we should get started? Or not? I'm open
for suggestions....or not.
12:24 Ioannis
Nestor: I've spent a fortune...
12:24 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yes, please maia
12:24 maia
Nestor: On what, Io?
12:25 Petra
Stuyvesant: on the cup I bet!
12:25 Athenia Glaucon enters...
12:25 Ioannis
Nestor: That bloody Cup :(
12:25 Athenia
Glaucon: Greetings friends!
12:25 Hetaira
Lysias: Run with it maia, I'm here because I've heard your such a great
facilitator. ;)
12:25 maia
Nestor: Okay, Book 13...Odysseus comes to Scheria...Athenia! The oracle
herself!
12:25 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello Athenia
12:25 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Greetings, Athenia!
12:25 maia
Nestor: How empowering of you H!
12:25 Hetaira
Lysias: Hola Chica!!!
12:26 Athenia
Glaucon: Right - I will be channeling the Muses today. Just kidding
12:26 Ioannis
Nestor: XAIPE Athenia!
12:26 Athenia
Glaucon: Gorgo! Its been a while
12:26 Hetaira
Lysias: Well ya know, when in doubt, validate. *grin*
12:26 Hetaira
Lysias: CBS or ABC Athenia?
12:26 Athenia
Glaucon: Hetaira, Iaonnis...<nodding regally, then throwing arms
wide for hugs>
12:27 Hetaira
Lysias: *TackleHugsKissesCopAFeels!*
12:27 Gorgo
Cleomenes: *lol*
12:27 maia
Nestor: She does do that regal nod thing well, doesn't she?
12:27 Athenia
Glaucon: ESPN, Het. :-)
12:27 Hetaira
Lysias: Wow...Muses on ESPN...have they been syndicated?
12:27 maia
Nestor: Okay okay! Attention class! *rapping on the blackboard* Book
13...
12:27 maia
Nestor: *sigh* I have no control...
12:28 Athenia
Glaucon: First ones to syndicate - oh, and Hercales on MSG.
12:28 Athenia
Glaucon: Sorry, Maia...
12:28 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh sorry, silliness came a knocking and I answered. *sheepish
grin*
12:28 Gorgo
Cleomenes: *looks down, shuffling her feet* Sorry, sis.
12:28 Hetaira
Lysias: I hate when that happens.
12:28 maia
Nestor: Yeah, A, stop falming around!
12:28 maia
Nestor: Now where were we?
12:29 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, Athenia did it! :'
12:29 maia
Nestor: Odysseus comes to Corfu...
12:29 Gorgo
Cleomenes: *roflmao*
12:30 maia
Nestor: Quite frankly, I haven't a clue how to facilitate. So if anyone
wants to say anything....RELEVANT! feel free...
12:31 Hetaira
Lysias: Man, and how about those Phaecians? I definitely want to stay
there the next time I'm cast adrift. They make Howard Johnson's look like
a barnyard.
12:31 Gorgo
Cleomenes: So, can does anyone see the womb connection in this book?
12:31 Ioannis
Nestor: Are we sure that Corfu is the island of Alkinoos?
12:31 Hetaira
Lysias: There's a womb? *shuffling pages frantically*
12:32 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Sorry--momentary loss of sanity.
12:32 Petra
Stuyvesant: You guys are out there!
12:32 maia
Nestor: No, Ioannis...and I was gonna ask you about that. I think it
was, but the jury is still out...
12:32 Athenia
Glaucon: Not entirely my own silliness, I see. (I'll be wandering in
and out, forgive me)
12:32 Hetaira
Lysias: *looking around* I don't feel out there.
12:33 maia
Nestor: Well, oracles have to wander, don't they, A? Isn't it a mandate?
12:33 Hetaira
Lysias: Athenia, your a tease. :)
12:33 Athenia
Glaucon: Maybe its not Corfu, but when have you seen an *ugly* Greek
island
12:34 maia
Nestor: The Phaecians originally came to that island because of warring
with the Cyclops...
12:34 Ioannis
Nestor: Athenia, I'm Greek. All the islands are fab!
12:35 Gorgo
Cleomenes: True, Maia. That was the interesting contrast between civilized
and uncivilized.
12:35 Hetaira
Lysias: Cyclops, and I thought my neighbors were bad.
12:35 Petra
Stuyvesant: I know we are just starting, but I am lost already, where
does it say Corfu in this book?
12:35 maia
Nestor: I wondered if it was designed, Scheria, to be an ideal society.
It certainly had idyllic qualities...
12:35 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Talk about bad neighbours!
12:35 maia
Nestor: No, Petra...Corfu is the candidate most likely for Scheria.
The modern day Corfu.
12:35 Hetaira
Lysias: Don't believe it does Petra.
12:36 Gorgo
Cleomenes: I think so. It demonstrated all that was ideal.
12:36 Ioannis
Nestor: Petra, it doesn't...But most scholars tend to think that Corfu
is the island of Phaecians.
12:36 Hetaira
Lysias: Ideal in what sense Gorgo?
12:37 Petra
Stuyvesant: Okay, thanks, I am new at Epic reading, take things literally
at first until I understand thing more. :^)
12:37 maia
Nestor: And Io, don't you think it interesting that Alkinoos says that
he is just one basileus out of 13...
12:37 Gorgo
Cleomenes: *glares at Hetaira* Oooh, give me a second. *smile*
12:37 maia
Nestor: But the text hardly supports that.
12:37 maia
Nestor: I think it's like Homer's version of the Garden of Eden.
12:38 Ioannis
Nestor: Hey guys what's your opinion about Homer's historical background?
12:38 maia
Nestor: You mean was he blind? From Chios?
12:39 maia
Nestor: I have no clue, but clearly he knew something about the geography
of Greece...
12:39 Athenia
Glaucon: Or his own understanding of history?
12:39 Ioannis
Nestor: I mean, can we accept him as a historian?
12:40 maia
Nestor: And though he leaves out many things of the Mycenaean society
(their bureaucracy) he does mention certain things that were Mycenaean,
but weren't known in the Dark Ages, so he must have been building on tradition.
12:40 maia
Nestor: No, I don't think he was an historian, per se...
12:40 Hetaira
Lysias: Ummm, at first glance, I wouldn't. Amazing storyteller, yes,
but his geography and weather patterns just confuses me.
12:40 Petra
Stuyvesant: I feel badly for Alkinoos, here he followed the prescribed
customs for honoring his guest, and he had to pay for it with the lives
of his subjects and the difficult physical changes to his island.
12:40 Athenia
Glaucon: Historian in the oral tradition, maybe. Not historian as we
identify it.
12:41 Athenia
Glaucon: Bardic historian...
12:41 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, what A said. :)
12:41 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Ioannis--I think to a certain degree. If you look at Book
III, you can see the structure of sacrifice, synoikismos and xenia. I suppose
he could be considered one of the first social historians.
12:42 Athenia
Glaucon: Conveying history orally is like a giant game of telephone.
:-)
12:42 Petra
Stuyvesant: Now at the last chat we discussed whether "he" really exisited
as a single man, woman, etc.
12:42 maia
Nestor: Homer as a woman? I doubt it...
12:42 Hetaira
Lysias: without the tin cans and fishing line. :)
12:43 Ioannis
Nestor: Well, I don't even believe that the Iliad and the Odyssey were
written by the same person(s)...
12:43 maia
Nestor: That was Samuel Butler, and followed up by Graves.
12:43 Athenia
Glaucon: (Aside to Hetaira: OKAY, you can be my official court jester
when I'm Rep.)
12:43 Petra
Stuyvesant: I've heard that in other places too, Ioannis
12:44 maia
Nestor: Oh, Io, there we part company! I am more a traditionalist.
I believe that one version is the work of a younger artist, the Odyssey
the work of a more mature poet.
12:44 Hetaira
Lysias: Thank you, 'bout time you noticed my scintillating wit. *mock
huffy look*
12:44 maia
Nestor: Well Petra, there are two real schools of thought about that.
12:44 maia
Nestor: Hetaira, we all know that you are scintillating!
12:45 Athenia
Glaucon: Petra, the concept of hospitality is always more complex than
just being nice to strangers. In Greek lit, there are plenty of instances
where hospitality leads to tragedy.
12:45 Ioannis
Nestor: I believe that these epics were the first attempts of the Geometric
basileis to get connected with the Mycenaean aristocracies.
12:45 Hetaira
Lysias: Is it possible that the original works were Homers, but as
it passed down from one bard to the next, the tone and texture changed?
That would explain why they seem different now?
12:45 Athenia
Glaucon: Playing telephone...
12:45 maia
Nestor: Yet Io, there are certainly Bronze Age connections in the work...the
boars tusk helmet, the Dendra armour....
12:46 Petronilla Livius enters...
12:46 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, what A said (Zeus wasn't too nice to people who treated
guests badly.)
12:46 maia
Nestor: Yes, H...and we don't know how much Peisistratos, who sort
of codified them, changed them.
12:46 Petra
Stuyvesant: Honestly, though, I don't believe it matters who wrote
it, all the details about that. (I know it matters A LOT to some
folks) what is important to me is how a work like this could survive
this long and influence so many other writers and artists-- that
is what impresses me.
12:46 Athenia
Glaucon: Because its about *us.*
12:46 maia
Nestor: There are those who believe that Book 2 in the Iliad, the Catalogue
of Ships, is an authentic Bronze Age document.
12:47 Petronilla
Livius: Hello all -I'll catch up with you all soon
12:47 Athenia
Glaucon: Achilles and his ilk aren't us, Odysseus is.
12:47 Ioannis
Nestor: That's what I mean Maia...The hero cults and these epics are
both an early Geometric phenomenon.
12:47 Athenia
Glaucon: Hi Petronilla...
12:47 maia
Nestor: Well, P, we were very lucky. And Homer is a canvas, isn't he?
You can see what you want there...it's a masterful work, Homer's corpus.
Hi,Petronilla.
12:48 maia
Nestor: Yet it is my understanding that many aspects of the the Bronze
Age had been lost by the Geometric period...
12:48 Petra
Stuyvesant: Atheina: I guess what I what interested me was when
Alkinoos reflects on his fathers premonition about the bad things that
would befall the island if they honored all their guests.
12:48 maia
Nestor: And I agree with that last, Athenia!
12:48 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello my friend!
12:49 Hetaira
Lysias: Everything is a canvas, if you choose to live your life symbolically.
Have an acorn, learn the universe. :)
12:49 Athenia
Glaucon: I have to leave for a moment - I'll return shortly
12:49 maia
Nestor: But Alkinoos did it anyway...and although Poseidon threatend
to ring the island, he didn't carry that out. Just petrified the ship...
12:49 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Okay, apparently, I must have the edited, abridged version
of The Odyssey. I'm lost....
12:50 maia
Nestor: Yes, Hetaira, that's true.
12:50 Ioannis
Nestor: Yes, but the Dark Ages elites were 'hungry' for relations with
the Mycenaean elites...
12:50 Hetaira
Lysias: Promises, promises Athenia. *grin*
12:50 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yes, I respect him for that, for being kind and moral even
though he knew it might bring misfortune eventually
12:50 maia
Nestor: Sorry Gorgo...maybe we should stick with the Odyssey and leave
the other speculations aside for the nonce.
12:51 maia
Nestor: That was guest friendship, Petra...hospitality was paramount.
12:53 Petra
Stuyvesant: (sorry) Testing testing 1,2 3
12:54 Gorgo Cleomenes enters...
12:54 Ioannis
Nestor: Gift-exchanges were common during the LBA and Dark Ages.
12:54 maia Nestor enters...
12:54 Petra
Stuyvesant: What is LBA, Ioannis?
12:55 Ioannis
Nestor: Late Bronze Age
12:55 maia
Nestor: An aspect of Zeus, Zeus Horkios, I think, was the protector
of guest-friendship.
12:55 Petra
Stuyvesant: okay (makes sense to me know *smile*)
12:55 Hetaira
Lysias: Yup, patron of strangers/guests, which seems to be used interchangably
in the book.
12:56 Petronilla
Livius: The swineherd Eumaeus says every stranger and beggar comes
from Zeus
12:56 Ioannis
Nestor: Gift-exchanges were a means of acquring more status...
12:56 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Xenos, I believe, means guest, host, stranger...etc...
12:56 maia
Nestor: Maybe it was Xenos, Gorgo. I defer to you...
12:56 Hetaira
Lysias: But I thought Barbarian roughly translated to Stranger?
12:57 maia
Nestor: So what did you all think of the character of Nausikaa? There
is mythological tradition that she ended by marrying Telemachos...
12:58 maia
Nestor: Of course, there is also myth that he married Nestor's daughter,
and Circe.
12:58 Gorgo
Cleomenes: No, barbarian is barbaros.
12:58 Hetaira
Lysias: Huh, okay, thanks Gorgo. :)
12:59 maia
Nestor: So a barbarian could be a stranger, though...although not exclusively?
12:59 Hetaira
Lysias: Shades of Melrose Place.
13:00 Ioannis
Nestor: Hey guys why don't you visit my oikos and have a look at my
archaeological links?
13:00 Gorgo
Cleomenes: I think barbarian basically denotes that it is a non-Greek
speaker. A Xenos could be greek.
13:00 Hetaira
Lysias: Maybe it's more barbarian as in foreigner?
13:00 Ioannis
Nestor: In Classical Greece barbarians were those who didn't speak
Greek...
13:00 Athenia
Glaucon: Wouldn't the idea of stranger protection include , primarily,
Hellenic strangers.
13:01 maia
Nestor: You have great links, Ioannis.
13:01 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Well, I think the idea behind xenia and the giving of xeneia,
is the fact that your guest could be a god.
13:01 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Ioannis, well then I defer. What was a barbarian in Homeric
lingo?
13:01 Hetaira
Lysias: Okay Ioannis, I'm taking the hint. *grin*
13:02 Ioannis
Nestor: I'm not sure if Homer uses that word...
13:03 maia
Nestor: Well since I have about zero Greek...I'll defer to Io and gorgo.
13:03 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Well, I'm sure you know which one he does use. I was simply
trying to explain the concept of barbarian with xenos.
13:04 Ioannis
Nestor: A xenos could be anyone that don't belong to the same kingroup...
13:05 Gorgo
Cleomenes: I'm sure it is.
13:05 maia Nestor enters...
13:06 maia
Nestor: Boy I keep entering and I didn't even know I had left! Neat
trick, that...
13:07 maia
Nestor: You know, gang, if we don't discuss the Odyssey at some point,
Torrey will implode!
13:07 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yup, waiting to talk about the book
13:08 maia
Nestor: Have any thoughts, Petra?
13:08 Ioannis
Nestor: Why?
13:08 Petra
Stuyvesant: I like Book 13 when O finally reaches Ithaca
13:08 Hetaira
Lysias: Keen villa you've got Ioannis, isn't the Perseus Project sweet?
:)
13:09 Ioannis
Nestor: Yep Hetaira...It's great!
13:10 maia
Nestor: And he meets Athena...and lies again. Recently, on Aegeanet
and the Classics list, I think, they point out that everytime O lies, he
says he's a Cretan.
13:10 Athenia
Glaucon: The point I was making is that by helping Odysseus, the Phaecians
incur the wrath of the Gods. So, its implied that you have to do the right
thing, but there's always an element of danger in it.
13:11 Petra
Stuyvesant: I agree with you A.
13:11 Gorgo
Cleomenes: Well, I think I'll take my leave. I have little to add.
Take care all!
13:11 Hetaira
Lysias: So why does Athena keep Odysseus in the dark about being home?
He might lie, but Athena seemed to set the tone for it.
13:11 Petra
Stuyvesant: What I especially like about this part of the story is
how Odyseus and Athene really form a partnership
13:11 Hetaira
Lysias: Don't go Gorgo!
13:12 Petra
Stuyvesant: Face to face, both shape shifting and having a good time
plotting and planning
13:12 maia
Nestor: I think she wanted to see what he would do...and he doesn't
disappoint her. He lies, and she thinks its wonderful. Because he does
use his mind, his gifts...whatever it takes to survive.
13:12 maia
Nestor: Oh Gorgo!
13:12 Gorgo
Cleomenes: My feeble mind can't hack the conversation today, unless
there are more monosyllabic words.
13:13 Hetaira
Lysias: Yup, he's quite crafty, for a man. *ducking*
13:13 Petra
Stuyvesant: You seem upset about his lying, Maia.
13:13 Hetaira
Lysias: Feeble mind, yeah anyway. Stay Gorgo. *firm look*
13:13 Petra
Stuyvesant: Isn't there a lot of deception and subterfuge in this book
13:13 maia
Nestor: Oh no, I LOVE his lying! He is a trip! He does whatever he
has to in order to survive, to beat odds.
13:14 maia
Nestor: Gorgo=feeble mind? Just doesn't compute.
13:14 Petra
Stuyvesant: okay, <i>hard to hear tone in email</i>
13:14 Hetaira
Lysias: You could transplant him to New York and you know he'd be selling
watches on a street corner. Or something like that. *grin*
13:15 Athenia
Glaucon: Grunt, Gorgo, grunt.
13:15 maia
Nestor: O always has to get the lay of the land, so to speak. And it
is one of his strengths. If he didn't resort to subterfuge, he'd be dead.
13:15 Gorgo
Cleomenes: As evidenced from above....Anyway, the main thing about
his lies is that they are simply CREDIBLE.
13:15 Hetaira
Lysias: Stop that Athenia, your turning me on. ;)
chat four continued
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