Ovid Metamorphoses
BOOKS 13, 14

Chat Transcript 10 
191 lines
August 14, 1999


18:55 Myrrhine Philemon enters...
19:01 Torrey Philemon enters...
19:01 Torrey Philemon: Hello, Myrrhine. Are you still here? Ovid chat starting.....
19:02 Myrrhine Philemon: Hello Torrey :) Yes I'm still here ... just popped out for a moment to post!
19:03 Myrrhine Philemon: But it seems my computer is running at snails pace this morning ...
19:08 Torrey Philemon: Ah, I just realized that with this new setup I have to push refresh to see posts! Morgana and Nimue are on their way, I believe.........
19:08 Nimue Cormac enters...
19:08 Nimue Cormac: better late than never?
19:08 Myrrhine Philemon: Torrey my screen is not refreshing ... I am going to try to come back in
19:08 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Nimue! Did you by any chance find a story in chapters 13-14 that interests you?
19:09 Morgana Flavius enters...
19:09 Torrey Philemon: I recommend going without frames, but the setup you may get may require you to push the refresh button whenever you want to see new posts.
19:10 Morgana Flavius: Hello, ladies!
19:10 Torrey Philemon: Welcome, Morgana. I just read your post about the men in Ovid bragging about their appearance.......
19:11 Nimue Cormac: i'm afraid i couldn't make head nor hair of it. my concentration hasn't been the best lately. i really was interested in hecuba, but got mixed up with the references to people i didn't know
19:11 Myrrhine Philemon: Well it seems to be ok now ... but won't let me change to frameless ... I will persevere
19:11 Morgana Flavius: Posting a message will also refresh the chat screen.
19:11 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, you wondered what Glaucon would look like as a fish/merman......There are two pictures here......top and middle of page...... http://hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/Charybdis.html
19:12 Myrrhine Philemon: Hecuba is one of my favourites ... probably because I studied Euripides last year
19:12 Torrey Philemon: Myrrhine, to change to frameless you have to make the change, then exit again, then come back. It doesn't take effect until you leave again. We were having some trouble with frames at the Purgatorio chat.....the screen jumped too much.
19:13 Morgana Flavius: Ah! A picture of Glaucus! Let me take a look at it!
19:13 Torrey Philemon: Myrrhine, do tell us about Hecuba. I've never read Euripides' Hecuba and am curious about it. She sure gets a bad deal!
19:14 Myrrhine Philemon: Doesn't she ... and it is even more heart rending in Euripides
19:15 Torrey Philemon: Is she portrayed differently in Euripides than in Ovid?
19:16 Myrrhine Philemon: Can you imagine, a woman who has lost everything then losing what was left to her and facing a life of slavery?  Too much ...
19:16 Morgana Flavius: Ugh! He looks awful! Not my idea of a male mermaid...
19:17 Myrrhine Philemon: As I think I said in my post Ovid seems to use Euripides as his base but naturally in the tragedy her character is developed a little more
19:17 Torrey Philemon: There's really no WHY to explain Hecuba's suffering. Most "punishments" as portrayed in Ovid seem to result from someone offending the gods. But what did Hecuba do wrong?
19:18 Myrrhine Philemon enters...
19:18 Torrey Philemon: (Now, now, Morgana, we have to wait till The Art of Love to share our erotic fantasies about mermen!)
19:18 Morgana Flavius: Sorry, I was getting in the middle of your conversation about Hecuba.
19:18 Myrrhine Philemon: Well that is the thing, she did nothing wrong.  She is not punished as such, just on the losing side in war
19:19 Myrrhine Philemon: I think her story is more about how someone can be worn down by tragedy
19:20 Torrey Philemon: We're having several conversations at once, as usual in chat! Glaucus and mermen AND Hecuba......
19:20 Myrrhine Philemon: If i can manage to stay in the room!
19:20 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Myrrhine. Hecuba's only "mistake" was that of being in the wrong side of a lost war...
19:21 Torrey Philemon: What happens to Hecuba after all her children die and she is married off.....to who? Agamemnon?
19:21 Nimue Cormac: i thought agamemnon was with cassandra?
19:22 Torrey Philemon: You're right Nimue! Who did Hecuba end up with?
19:23 Myrrhine Philemon: Is she married off - I had not heard that
19:23 Morgana Flavius: BTW, the whole story around the Trojan fall after the war is about those sad women and what had become of them. Cassandra, Plyxena, Hecuba, Andromache... poor ladies!
19:24 Myrrhine Philemon: Oh just reading my copy of Euripides - she does actually change to a dog
19:24 Torrey Philemon: Maybe she wasn't married off, because she was older and no longer desirable....but what did happen to her?........Is the Trojan Women about what happened to these grieving women, Morgana?
19:25 Morgana Flavius: Hecuba is given to Ulysses, as a slave. She is not married off with anyone.
19:26 Nimue Cormac: Cassandra has always been one of the few greek mythological figures i felt sorry for
19:26 Morgana Flavius: And she turns into a mad dog after that.
19:26 Torrey Philemon: Euripides' Hecuba  http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/hecuba.html
19:27 Nimue Cormac: imagine knowing about your own defeat and no one will believe you. must have been very frustrating
19:27 Torrey Philemon: Is there a given reason for her being turned into a mad dog?
19:28 Myrrhine Philemon: Nimue we discussed that in class - my lecturer suggested it was because in her revenge on Polymestor she loses her humanity ... the one thing she had left ... but I am not entirely sure
19:29 Morgana Flavius: Yes, the Trojan Women play is about what happens to the women after the "brave men" of Troy do the following: Priam kills himself, Aeneas flees away (to be the founder of a great empire...), many other Trojan heroes either kill themselves or are easily slaughtered by the Greeks.
19:29 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Cassandra gets a bad deal too. There is a Jungian book by Marion Woodman on the Cassandra Complex......I think of it as being caught in nightmarish future visions, unable to see the positive.....and the suffering of never being believed, or passively seeing horrors before they happen and not being able to do anything about it.
19:29 Nimue Cormac: we discussing in disciples the other night that the ancients had little respect for dogs....unlike today....maybe it was a way of putting her in her place
19:30 Torrey Philemon: I wonder if anyone's done a study of grief and the various methods of coping with loss in the Greek classics. I can't think of any positive examples!
19:30 Morgana Flavius: Myrrhine, I think Ovid also mentions the "loss of humanity" the cause for Hecuba's metamorphoses.
19:32 Myrrhine Philemon: Oh I must have missed that in Ovid ... I didn't get the same sense of it
19:32 Morgana Flavius: Hecuba's horror and personal tragedy depicts very clearly what happen to women when they don't have their men anymore to protect them.
19:33 Nimue Cormac: the greeks are a little too male centered for me. the men have their war..blaming it on helen, of course. then when its over they punish the only ones left....the women
19:34 Torrey Philemon: (I read about Hecuba a month ago.....and forgot that she was turned into a she-hound. Just found it at 13:569.....)
19:35 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Nimue. And as you mention Helen, she's the only one who seems to get away with that all. She is accepted by her husband Menelaus and in some myths she's been placed in the Elisium fields and leaves there happily ever after her death.
19:36 Torrey Philemon: I agree with you Nimue which is why I search for stories of women heroines. There really are few in Greek myth. Iphigenia becomes a heroine in Iphigenia in Tauris; Philomela is a heroine after her victimization. But most women seem victimized.....
19:36 Nimue Cormac: and i thought the hebrews were woman- haters!
19:37 Morgana Flavius: The humiliation the rest of the Trojan women are put through after the lost war is really terrible. Well, it seems that everything that was written about the fall of Troy was written by Greek 'MEN'! So, it should not surprise us that the fate of the women of those who lost the war was that terrible...
19:37 Torrey Philemon: And the women never had choice in the matter, in fact for the most part they didn't want their men to go off to war...So much of our western civilization, sadly enough, has developed from the values embedded in both Greek and Hebrew myths.....
19:39 Nimue Cormac: some things take a long time to change...some things never do
19:39 Morgana Flavius: Exactly, Torrey. But maybe, they did not want the war because women knew the risk they would run IF their side loses the war...
19:40 Nimue Cormac: if i were to judge by this story, the hebrews were downright liberals.
19:41 Myrrhine Philemon: Or even if they don't lose Morgana!  Just the loss associated with war puts women off - even in Greek comedy - the Lysistrata - the women want their men home
19:41 Morgana Flavius: LOL Nimue!
19:41 Morgana Flavius: You have a point, Myrrhine, yes, war is definitely something women do not like at all!
19:42 Torrey Philemon: My sense is that there is a different system of rules in peace than in war.......Civilizations differ in how they treat captives; captives after war don't have rights for the most part. It's not just a male/female issue.
19:43 Morgana Flavius: I always like to see the man behind his work. That's why I usually try to imagine what kind of person Ovid was. What he believed, what were his points of view about the stories he tells in his Metamorphoses...
19:44 Myrrhine Philemon: Yes your fate was either death or slavery
19:44 Torrey Philemon: By the way, are there any other stories you all want to discuss? Scylla and Glaucus, Galatea, Aeneas, the Sibyl, Circe, Canens and Picus.....?
19:44 Morgana Flavius: There's a particular passage in Book 13, around verses 835-39, where I think Ovid is mocking Homer...
19:45 Torrey Philemon: Interesting, Morgana. We're viewing the stories through his eyes. What do you think his perspective is (apart from everyone being in the mercy of  intense uncontrollable passion which causes them to be motivated by desire or revenge!)
19:46 Myrrhine Philemon: which lines are those Morgana ... I don't have numbers!
19:46 Morgana Flavius: At least, the version I'm reading now (More's from Perseus Project site) says something about the eternal "rosy fingers" of Homer's Iliad...
19:46 Nimue Cormac: this is where the celt way is a bit different. as i understand it. captives were taken, but not for life. if you were captured in war, you often only served for a set number of years
19:46 Torrey Philemon: Could you quote the beginning of the passage, Morgana? Different translations number lines a bit differently.
19:47 Torrey Philemon: The lines you mentioned Morgana, in my book end up in the middle of the Cyclops bragging about his looks to Galatea. Is that the section you mean?
19:48 Morgana Flavius: It says "Aurora, his rose-tinted mother, saw him perish by Achilles' deadly spear (...) and the loved rose that lights the dawning hour turned death-pale..."
19:49 Morgana Flavius: This when Ovid tells the story of the rather obscure Memnon, Aurora's son. He does use the words Homer uses in the opening of the Iliad, doesn't he?
19:49 Torrey Philemon: I'm not sure what the Greek attitude was toward captives.....but some Trojan captives do ok after the war. Aeneas encounters one who even becomes a king.....
19:49 Morgana Flavius: Hum... yes, lines don't always match in each translation...
19:50 Myrrhine Philemon: My translation is a little different ... She his bright golden mother ... the rosy blush that dyes the hour of dawn grew pale
19:50 Morgana Flavius: Well, Torrey, those that do well after the war, probably "left" before it ended...
19:51 Myrrhine Philemon: oh and this is in around line 570?
19:51 Torrey Philemon: Oh yes, rosy-fingered dawn! Do you think this is a mocking of Homer or a simply carrying on of his terminology?
19:52 Morgana Flavius: oh well, then probably the translator in my version just had read Homer and decided to put the "rose"-tinted mother there... Unfortunately, I can't read any Latin to tell what Ovid meant...
19:52 Torrey Philemon: Mandelbaum: "She, the radiant one....the color of the goddess paled....daybreak did not grow bright with rose-red hues"
19:53 Morgana Flavius: I read those verses as a mockery...
19:54 Torrey Philemon: It's around line 570 in my translation too, Myrrhine......the section on Aurora....
19:54 Morgana Flavius: I think Ovid is the kind of poet who would use his verses to peck on his fellow poets...
19:54 Torrey Philemon: What leads you believe it may be a mockery, Morgana?
19:56 Myrrhine Philemon: Oh dear ... I need to go - my sister and I have a sharing arrangement at the moment.  Sorry I couldn't stay longer but I look forward to the transcrips
19:56 Torrey Philemon: I think I read the Rouse (?) translation of Homer in high school, and there was a lot of "rosy-fingered dawn." I only learned last year that a lot of these repetitive adjectives were for the sake of meter......different expressions associated with the gods and goddesses could be used when the meter needed to be filled out.....
19:56 Morgana Flavius: My translation of this part is around lines 835... that's a HUGE difference! I wonder what else that More has put in Ovid's mouth! (LOL)
19:57 Torrey Philemon: Glad you came, Myrrhine! One more Ovid chat......we'll announce the last meeting on the   board.
19:58 Morgana Flavius: Yes, the "rosy-fingered down" of Homer and the "rose-tinted mother" of Ovid do sound like someone making fun of an already traditional poem.
19:58 Morgana Flavius: Bye, Myrrhine! A pity you can't stay! Try to come for next chat! It will be the last book of Metamorphoses!
20:00 Torrey Philemon: I think there are two number schemes for most classics.......one for the original language, and the other created at the whim of the translator. The latter will vary with each text.....
20:00 Nimue Cormac: i need to be going too. glad i came though. now i know what i've been reading about. thank you for inviting me
20:02 Morgana Flavius: Plus - and I think we've already discussed this in the board or in a previous chat - the part of Aeneas in Ovid's work is really deplorable. Although he writes as if he is only praising Aeneas' "courage", in every word I read about him in the Metamorphoses, I see mockery. Expressions like "the pious hero" and the like abound... Yuck! Amazing epithet for someone who runs away while his city is being sacked...
20:02 Torrey Philemon: glad you came too, nimue even though you're not too enthusiastic about greek mythology! look it as a means of understanding some of the foundations of our culture, and the cause of our cultural neurosis!
20:03 Torrey Philemon: Interesting perspective, Morgana! I'm not  fond of Aeneas myself but I didn't "pick up" the mockery of him. It may be also that your translator has his own  interpretation, and slants his interpretation  acc to his own views or his perception of Ovid.
20:04 Nimue Cormac: its about time i read some of this. i got all the way through college without it. i'll see you guys later
20:05 Torrey Philemon: Nimue, using the online Bullfinch will help you in regard to the references, also Greek Mythology Link site.....
20:05 Nimue Cormac exits...
20:05 Morgana Flavius: But again, a hero has all the possible excuses for a deplorable act of cowardice when his "motives" are high. And of course, Ovid tries to focus on that as much as he can, by writing how a city who has lost a war, whose women ended up in the most humiliating way, did not disappear and lived through the glory of its Roman descendents throughout the centuries to come...
20:07 Torrey Philemon: Do you think Ovid had a political agenda  in regard to Aeneas?
20:08 Morgana Flavius: Well, yes, Torrey. My interpretation could be biased because of the particular translation I'm reading. But even so, I think that the whole story of Aeneas is a pittiful re-telling of a sacred myth for Romans. Ovid could do it better if he wanted... but maybe he was being cautious and political not to overshine Virgil, Augustus' favorite poet.
20:09 Morgana Flavius: I don't know, but Ovid must have been a kind of "enfant terrible" in old Roman times... no wonder he got banished...
20:09 Torrey Philemon: Ovid does a pitiful job in some of his storytelling in general. Some are great and others are so sketchy. I get the impression that with the latter, that he didn't want to be writing, that he wanted to be in bed with his current lover!
20:10 Torrey Philemon: You're probably right, Morgana....about the mockery! Ovid did seem to enjoy tempting fate, daring to write what he wasn't supposed to.
20:10 Morgana Flavius: Anyway... how about Circe? She's an interesting character too. If I'm not mistaken, she's the sister of Medea and Pasiphae (each one with her own interesting story too)
20:11 Morgana Flavius: LOL Torrey! I couldn't have said it better! LOL!
20:11 Torrey Philemon: (By the way, I just noticed that Myrrhine posted about Hecuba on our board just as our chat was beginning. I didn't notice it before.)
20:12 Torrey Philemon: Yes the Circe story is a good one. I felt really bad for Canens, she and Picus had such a good thing before Circe got the hots for the Picus man.
20:12 Morgana Flavius: (my last posting was about Ovid wanting to be in bed instead of writing)
20:15 Morgana Flavius: BTW, just before we go on about Circe, I think that the last books of Metamorphoses were written by Ovid when he had already been banished from Rome. He could be trying to be more careful, but nevertheless, I do sense some kind of disdain towards the "sacred" Aeneas story...
20:15 Torrey Philemon: I get annoyed at all the female goddesses taking their anger out on the other woman when they can't get or keep the man they want! There a lot of jealous revenge-taking in Greek and Roman myths!
20:16 Torrey Philemon: Very interesting point, Morgana, about when Ovid wrote the last books of the Metamorphoses. Is there a timeline on when he started and finished it?
20:17 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Circe was the kind of woman who dared to show and fight for the men she wanted as lovers. And apparently, she was very respected for that, although she had to use the protection of "magic" weapons.
20:17 Torrey Philemon: I think Maia Nestor  mentioned that attitudes in general toward Aeneas changed after Virgil.......haven't seen any information on this.
20:18 Morgana Flavius: (Yes, when we started reading the Metamorphoses, I read that Ovid started it while still in Rome, but finished it when he was already gone. I guess there's a link to a timeline in your Metamorphoses page, Torrey)
20:19 Torrey Philemon: You know I looked and couldn't find any commentaries on Ovid.  There are so many on Virgil, Homer etc. But no commentaries on Metamorphoses seem to be in print. That is hard to believe!
20:20 Morgana Flavius: Here, in Ovid's Metamorphoses, it's the first time I hear that Circe calls herself a goddess (again, this is my translation).
20:21 Morgana Flavius: Yes, very strange that Ovid comments are not so easy to find...
20:22 Torrey Philemon: Timeline http://www.nyu.edu/classes/latin2/ovid_timeline.html   Looks like the end of the Metamorphoses did coincide with his Exile! Very interesting!
20:22 Morgana Flavius: Still about Circe: I've always heard that she was considered a witch, not a goddess. But here, in Book 14, around the 50th line, she says: "I am a goddess, and I am also the daughter of the radiant Sun!"
20:24 Morgana Flavius: I wonder what kind of goddess she was... maybe a "dark" one, like Hecate... Nevertheless, she's never connected to any underworld stories (like the Sybil, for instance, who is not a goddess, but appears in the same book).
20:25 Torrey Philemon: (On Ovid's exile  http://www.ucd.ie/~classics/Richmond95.html     but now I find myself wondering if he could have published Metamorphosis when on this barbaric island where he didn't even have books. Maybe he finished it before exile but was undergoing the bitterness of possible exile as he finished writing. )
20:26 Torrey Philemon: My impression is that Circe is a lesser goddess, but it's not clear what distinguishes a goddess from other immortal beings. Like the Naiads, are they goddesses? What defines a goddess?
20:27 Morgana Flavius: Hum, I read that Ovid's exile did permit him to take all his belongings with him. So, he probably finished his writings on the barbaric land and some friend took it to be published in Rome.
20:28 Torrey Philemon: That makes sense. I just skimmed the article on his exile, so I didn't catch all the details.
20:28 Morgana Flavius: Naiads are nymphs, aren't they? They're not goddesses, but the spirit of natural objects, like water, trees, etc.
20:30 Morgana Flavius: I read a lot of stuff about Ovid's exile. Remember when we had that "debate" about the causes of it? If it was because of Augustus' daughter Julia or his grandaughter also named Julia...
20:30 Torrey Philemon:  Circe links ....check out the middle of http://www.ancientsites.com/~Torrey_Philemon/odyssey/odysseycharacters.htm
20:31 Morgana Flavius: Here's what I found about Circe in the Greek Mythology link: "Circe was a powerful witch who, with the help of herbs, muttering incantations, or praying to her weird gods, could turn men into animals or create unsubstantial images of beasts."
20:31 Torrey Philemon: Most of the material on Circe seems Odyssey-related. This one might have more though...... http://members.aol.com/Ableiten/circe/CircesIsle.htm
20:34 Torrey Philemon: That site is really good. Especially this page...... http://members.aol.com/Ableiten/circe/TheMyth.htm
20:37 Torrey Philemon: Are you reading the Circe information? It's very intriguing that Circe ends up marrying Odysseus' son Telemachus!
20:41 Morgana Flavius: Yes, that's a very good site, Torrey! But for a quick summary or refreshment of memory, the Greek Mythology is great, wrapping up all the different versions about Circe in a very compact way.
20:43 Torrey Philemon: Yes I just found the Greek Mythology Circe page.  It is a really good one! (I'm wondering what the source is of Circe marrying Telemachus. I think there is some lesser known work on the subject but I don't remember the name of it)
20:44 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I'm reading the information on the links you suggested, Torrey.
20:45 Morgana Flavius: Yes, the whole story about Circe making Penelope and Telemachus immortal is really strange.
20:47 Morgana Flavius: Plus, Telegonus is Odysseus' son who kills him (his own father) without knowing it and when finds out his mistake, try to make things up by marrying the widow. Sounds very Shakesperean, doesn't it?
20:48 Morgana Flavius: And Penelope weds Circe's and Ulysses' son, while Circe weds Penelope's and Ulysses'  son. Wow! What a complicated story!!
20:48 Torrey Philemon: Hmm. Just found that the info on Circle marrying Telemachus was from the Telegony by Eugammon.  http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~eshaw/trojan.html
20:51 Torrey Philemon: Hmm. I didn't see the parallels before. The son of Odysseus and Penelope marries Circe. The son of Odysseus and Circe marries Penelope. That is bizarre. (At least there is some precedent for older women getting younger men <-: ! )
20:52 Torrey Philemon: You know it sounds like somebody made this all up. I have a hard time believing this was an old myth handed down through generations. I bet it was the invention of a later author, this Eugammon.
20:52 Morgana Flavius: Aha! Telegony! Now I know where Shakespeare drove his inspiration from. LOL!
20:53 Torrey Philemon: This Telegony is bizarre. After Odysseus kills the suitors instead of being with his beloved wife Penelope "Suitors buried; Odysseus goes to Thesprotis and marries Queen Callidice". Huh?
20:53 Morgana Flavius: I agree with that Torrey!
20:54 Torrey Philemon: I'd like to see this Telegony!
20:56 Morgana Flavius: Well, I guess that too many people tried to invent things that could have happened after the main story was ended. And as they did not have telephone at that time, they could not check with each other to look for inconsistences... LOL!
20:57 Torrey Philemon: More on Telegony http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/ret-telg.html
20:58 Torrey Philemon: Somebody agrees with us and put his own commentary on the text! "Telegonos marries Penelope and Telemachus marries Circe. (Sure!)" at http://www.catawba.edu/dept/history/troytale.htm
21:01 Torrey Philemon: And a professor at Rice says, "Eugammon of Kyrene's 2 books of the Telegony, where Telegonus, Odysseus's son by Circe comes to Ithaca, accidentally kills him (sorry Homer), and MARRIES PENELOPE while Telemachus MARRIES CIRCE. Books we're glad are lost......"
21:03 Torrey Philemon: Hey Morgana, since you Brazilians have steamy soap operas, someone there could do one on Telemachus and Circe and Telegonos and Penelope! For middleaged women and their younger men!
21:04 Torrey Philemon: Guess we're getting away from Ovid though......
21:05 Morgana Flavius: Oh my! Yes, I remember that there was a soap opera that had as the main plot a woman who marries her own son without knowing it. And of course, her name was... Jocasta! LOL!
21:05 Torrey Philemon: Are you kidding? LOL!!!
21:07 Morgana Flavius: Yes... we got carried away by Circe... Anyhow, I couldn't find anything interesting in book 14 besides Circe's story. How about you? (BTW, I shall be going in a while.)
21:09 Morgana Flavius: (No kidding! So much for the subtleties of TV soap operas writers...!)
21:10 Torrey Philemon: The Sibyl is interesting in book 14; I'm trying to find more information on her rejection of Apollo........Also I'm surprised that Juno suddenly starts supporting Aeneas after trying to destroy him in the Aeneid.
21:11 Morgana Flavius: Oh... yes, there's the Sybil too! Interesting story of a woman who asks something and forget to ask the means by which she can enjoy it. The Sybil asked for as many years as the grains of sand in her hand but fogets to ask the necessary youth to live them happily! And she becomes really ugly! BTW, have you seen the Cumaean Sybil as painted by Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel? She has the face of a very old woman, but her arms look like the ones of a young and very strong man!
21:11 Torrey Philemon: (I need to go in a few minutes too.....) Yes those Michelangelo paintings are strange. She is very heavy and masculine. I wonder why Michelangelo conceives her this way......I'd imagine her to be more ethereal, spindly........
21:14 Torrey Philemon: I find myself wondering why she rejected Apollo. Because she didn't want to be raped and overpowered? Because she didn't want to be with a god? Or because she didn't want to be sexual at all? (I wish someone would write a film script of her. That would be interesting! The Sybil's Story)
21:15 Morgana Flavius: Yes, apparently Juno thought that Aeneas had enough... And also, after Aeneas story, Ovid goes on talking about his descendants (clearly aiming at arriving at Augustus' own family). But what about the story of Romulus and Remus being fed by the she-wolf? Have you noticed that Ovid does not mention that at all, and Book 14 ends with the deification of Romulus and his wife Hersilia, so I supposed that the she-wolf story will not come in Book 15 anymore...
21:17 Torrey Philemon: I didn't finish book 14 yet.......I guess we'll do the end of 14 and 15 next chat. When shall we do it? I'm away the first two weeks in September, and the last weekend in August is the Paradiso chat, but that's ok with me. We can finish both books at the end of summer......Could you do both in one weekend? I know Myrrhine needs a weekend evening time, from Australia.......
21:18 Torrey Philemon: We could finish Ovid August 28 and do Dante the next day.....
21:21 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I could do both chats in one weekend. It's only Book 15 for me, as I've already read Book 14.
21:21 Torrey Philemon: Or Friday night August 27.....What do you think? I know that weekends aren't always good for you.
21:22 Morgana Flavius: Plus, you have mentioned that there's a whole Divine Comedy chat in FabBib, on the 22nd...
21:23 Torrey Philemon: Ok I'll post that weekend and see if there's any preference for Friday or Saturday evening. Do you have a preference? (Dante will be Sunday evening)
21:23 Morgana Flavius: This month of August should be alright for me. Any weekend (unless something unforeseen happens, like that family lunch on Aug. 8)
21:24 Torrey Philemon: Well it doesn't appear that people are showing up for the regular FB chats. Only Asterix showed up for Laughter of Aphrodite (one that should be interesting in the future is the Renault novels on Theseus - really good - in the fall!)
21:24 Morgana Flavius: No preference. Let's see what Nimue and Myrrhine prefer.
21:25 Torrey Philemon: I also do have some weekday evening times in midSeptember, as my teaching schedule stops for three weeks. But I'm out of town for part of that.....Anyway I'll announce this on the board, and see what Nimue and Myrrhine can do, and anyone else who's interested.....Then on to Art of Love!
21:26 Torrey Philemon: Gee you're in the middle of winter, aren't you! Your seasons are the reverse of ours........
21:26 Morgana Flavius: Yes, then on to Art of Love! Good night, Torrey! It has been great!
21:27 Torrey Philemon: Great talking with you as always, Morgana! Maybe more book discussion interest will develop in the fall, and more people will join us.........
21:27 Morgana Flavius: No seasons here in the Equator area. But in the south of Brazil, yes, it's winter time. And I've heard it's been VERY cold there this year.
21:28 Morgana Flavius: Bye Torrey!
21:29 Torrey Philemon: Goodnight! (you'll have to let us all know where you are on the map sometime!)
21:29 Torrey Philemon exits...
21:30 Morgana Flavius exits...

NEXT CHAT - Book 14-15!  Go to transcript.
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