Ovid Amores
Chat Transcript 12 
268 lines
October 30, 1999


19:53 Nimue Cormac enters...
19:57 Nimue Cormac exits...
20:00 Torrey Philemon enters...
20:01 Torrey Philemon: The Ovid Amores chat is starting soon......
20:05 Nimue Cormac enters...
20:06 Nimue Cormac: i'm bck
20:06 Torrey Philemon: Ah there you are again! Morgana's on her way. She mentioned two others who were going to try to be here.......and Myrrhine is supposed to be here too!
20:07 Nimue Cormac: should be good
20:07 Morgana Flavius enters...
20:08 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Morgana!
20:08 Morgana Flavius: Good evening, ladies!
20:08 Torrey Philemon: We could call this chat: Ovid as Woody Allen!  <-:
20:08 Nimue Cormac: hi morgana
20:08 Torrey Philemon: Are any men coming, Morgana?
20:08 Morgana Flavius: I don't see Brummicus and Tartara on line now...
20:09 Torrey Philemon: And has anyone heard from Myrrhine? About 2 weeks ago she indicated she could make it.
20:10 Morgana Flavius: Olodum is not coming, but Brummicus told me he tried to be here, although it's very late for him (in Europe).
20:12 Morgana Flavius: Ovid as the ancient Roman Woody Allen is quite appealling to me! Or maybe, he could be the ancient Roberto Benigni! (famous and fun Italian actor)
20:12 Torrey Philemon: Well maybe he and a few others will arrive soon! Meanwhile we can start. Anyone want to jump in with a comment on Amores?
20:12 Torrey Philemon: Ah Benigni! I haven't seen Benigni in a movie yet, but he definitely is the type based.
20:12 Morgana Flavius: But, oh boy! Was that Ovid a slippery character, heh?
20:13 Nimue Cormac: i see little or nothing of love in this work, but a lot of lust.
20:14 Torrey Philemon: Do you think Amores was autobiographical, or was he totally inventing a character? Or his persona in Amores half real, half fictional? It's  unclear.
20:15 Morgana Flavius: I usually burst into laughter at the mere sight of Benigni! I've recently seen one of his not so recent movies, Johnny Stecchino, where he portrays a traditional Napolitan "godfather". Really hilarious! Making fun not only of that Napolitan tradition of the "Cosa Nostra" but also making fun of himself!
20:17 Morgana Flavius: Excuse me for a moment. The chat screen is very slow. Let me exit and come back again.
20:17 Morgana Flavius exits...
20:18 Epistate Philemon enters...
20:18 Torrey Philemon: Chat screen slowed down for me too........Do you really think that Ovid is humorous in Amores though?.....Also, what do you think motivated him to write it? And what effect do you think he wanted to have on his audience? That puzzles me.
20:18 Epistate Philemon: Hi, Torrey and everybody!
20:19 Torrey Philemon: Epistate, my goodness, what a wonderful surprise! More women to gang up on adolescent Ovid!   Morgana should be returning in a moment, and Nimue is here, silently scratching her mosquito bites <-:
20:21 Epistate Philemon: Poor Ovid...actually I don't know the Amores well at all.  I prefer Ars Amatoria--I guess that's up for the next chat?
20:22 Torrey Philemon: yes we're doing art of love, ars amatoria next.
20:22 Morgana Flavius enters...
20:23 Torrey Philemon: (Sounds like you're really thriving on an Antigone discussion these days, Epistate)
20:24 Epistate Philemon: I'm looking forward to seeing what you folks have to say about it.  Amores, I mean.
20:24 Morgana Flavius: Hi epistate! Nice seeing again!
20:25 Morgana Flavius: *keeping Nimue company and scratching my mosquito bites too*
20:25 Epistate Philemon: Hi, Morgana!  Yes, Torrey, I'm really pleased with the way the Antigone discussion is going.  We've been getting lots of interesting posts over in Daedalidai agora.
20:25 Torrey Philemon: Now Morgana and Nimue, we have to come up with something intelligent to say about Amores for the sake of Epistate! Hmm........
20:27 Morgana Flavius: Ok, Torrey, let's tackle your ever insightful questions and comments. First, for me, Ovid is half fictional, half real in ALL his poems.
20:28 Torrey Philemon: What I want to know is why he wrote this.....exposing his sexual manipulativeness, dishonesty, then inadequacy. Was this a kind of expose? (I'm thinking of people that go on those sensational talk shows to air their dirty laundry - their deceptions and humiliations)
20:28 Morgana Flavius: Er... that ALL was a bit too fast... actually, I haven't read ALL of Ovid's poems!
20:28 Torrey Philemon: What part do you think is fictional and what part real?
20:29 Epistate Philemon: I noticed, Torrey, that you were wondering on the BB whether Corinna was a real woman or not (maybe a composite?).  I dunno the answer.  I know Catullus's Lesbia was a real woman.  Did Ovid use the pastoral "Corinna" to hide a true identity (as "Lesbia" hid the [married] Clodia's), or to make her generic?
20:30 Epistate Philemon: If he's exposing his own manipulative nature, maybe she is a composite.  He might be writing to impress the guys!
20:30 Morgana Flavius: Yes, T, it seems like a psychological break through. I see Amores as Ovid's exercise to show his dirty laundry but also very concerned about not revealling too much of his private life. As if he's saying: this is what happens to me, believe me, it's all true, but don't you ever forget that I'm a poet, and poets are famous for their fictional personas...
20:31 Torrey Philemon: Peter Green doesn't think Corinna is a real woman unmarried or married to someone else because if she were Ovid would not have had such easy access to her. Green thinks she's actually based on his first wife! Strange.... having sex with his wife wouldn't be illicit!
20:32 Epistate Philemon: Or maybe even, don't forget, girlfriend, that I could do this to YOU if I chose?
20:32 Morgana Flavius: I guess I'm totally biased on Green's notes on Amores now. I tend to see Corinna as a cover up for Ovid's experiences with his first (and adolescent) wife.
20:32 Epistate Philemon: (My remark being in reply to Morgana's)
20:33 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Morgana. On the one hand he seems to be revealing all, but he's doing it in a half-fictionalized way that masks the truth. It's like a fake or fictional confession!
20:33 Epistate Philemon: I never got the impression it was incredibly difficult for married women to have affairs, if they were wealthy and clever enough.
20:33 Aldicius Amaru enters...
20:34 Aldicius Amaru: Salvete omnes.
20:34 Morgana Flavius: Also, it seems that Ovid may have been in his real life an adept of erotic games (even with his own wife, at times) where what matters is the "chase" and not the actual (and boring, in Ovid's and probably his contemporary fellow poets) marital life.
20:34 Epistate Philemon: If it was supposed to be so difficult, how did all those women get out of the house to whoop it up with the gladiators?  Yet we know for certain that that was a popular fad.
20:35 Morgana Flavius: Welcome, Aldicius!!!
20:35 Epistate Philemon: He really does focus quite a bit on the chase.  Eluding his fellow men seems to be almost as much fun as pursuing their wives.
20:36 Torrey Philemon: Epistate, since you're not  that familiar with Amores...it's  a mixture of him revealing his manipulations to seduce Corinna (and others) but he also reveals his eventual impotence and her leaving him for another so that he feels humiliated and devastated. So he's more like a Woody Allen.....sexual bravado of a sort alternated with confessions of inadequacy.
20:36 Epistate Philemon: Hi, Aldicius!
20:37 Epistate Philemon: There's an impotence passage in the Ars Amatoria too.
20:37 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Aldicius! Didn't expect you to make the chat!
20:37 Morgana Flavius: Apparently, Epistate, it was not so difficult for Roman upper class women to have love affairs. Despite Augustus moralizing program, Romans (men and women) could always count on bribing their chaperones, which of course, added more "salt" on those love affairs.
20:37 bell Domitius enters...
20:38 Torrey Philemon: What you said about eluding his fellow men, Epistate.......I agree! I get the impression that at least half the excitement for Ovid/Ovid's persona was in secrecy and deception!
20:39 Aldicius Amaru: Hi Torrey! I guess I got lucky tonight.
20:39 Epistate Philemon: So is Peter Green's argument built on sand?  Torrey, what evidence did he give for it being based on his own marriage?  Difficulty of access seems a bit weak.  Hi, Bell!
20:39 Torrey Philemon: Welcome, bell Domitius. Have you read Amores?
20:40 Aldicius Amaru: It was always easy, Morgana, for men to have affairs in the ancient world. It was a slave society, remember?
20:40 Morgana Flavius: I also think that Ovid was the kind of person who is simply horrified when he sees (either in himself or in others) a naive behavior. And it seems that an honest love affair was considered a "rough people's" game... something only fit for peasants, not the urbane Roman intellectual fellowship.
20:41 bell Domitius: Ave I have not read it but wish to listen to your views....
20:41 Aldicius Amaru: But for women, it was still illegal, and they were technically liable to the death penalty
20:41 Epistate Philemon: Good point, Morgana.  Maybe all that sneaking around is part of the denial of naivete.  Look at me, I'm up to all the sophisticated tricks.
20:41 Aldicius Amaru: Salve, bell. I don't think we've met.
20:42 bell Domitius: Salve, Aldicius we have not!  pleased to meet you!
20:43 Epistate Philemon: Aldicius, I wonder how often that death penalty was practiced.  More in Augustus's Rome than in that of his immediate successors, I'll bet.  But...  wouldn't that add spice to the enterprise?
20:43 Torrey Philemon: Urbane intellectual fellowships often have great rationalizations for inability to love or commit! <-: ( Remembering my days hanging out with philosophy majors in college!)
20:43 Morgana Flavius: Green's argument in favor of Corinna=Ovid's first wife was the time the Amores was published (two years after Ovid's first marriage) and the hints in the poem that Corinna and Ovid shared the same household (he sees her getting prepared by her maid in the morning, they share the same household gods and the same "familiar bed", etc.) Whenever he portrays Corinna as another man's woman (or wife), that's an attempt to deviate his audience's attention from his own private life.
20:44 Aldicius Amaru: I'm not sure the Romans would agree that there could be such a thing as an "honest love affair" especially* among rough peasants.
20:45 Nimue Cormac enters...
20:45 Epistate Philemon: Well, of course, Torrey!  <g>  Nothing less poetic than a mundane commitment.
20:45 Morgana Flavius: I had a similar experience, Torrey, when I used to hang out with poets myself!
20:45 Torrey Philemon: Yet it seems strange because there's little deception/sneaking around necessary for him to sleep with his wife! I'm  not convinced by Green's argument .....Ovid or his persona sure focuses on the thrill of the chase, of the not fully available woman.
20:46 Epistate Philemon: Oh, I get it, Morgana.  Yes, that does make sense.  Especially because in the Ars Amatoria he points out how important it is NOT to see your beloved getting ready in the morning because it will ruin the mystery.
20:46 Nimue Cormac: finally.......
20:46 Torrey Philemon: Welcome back, Nimue! I wasn't sure if you were still with us.
20:47 Aldicius Amaru: Actually Torrey, it would have been less practiced then. The fact that Augustus's moral legislation wsas repeated so often is an indicator that it was not successful. But so far from adding spice, disgrace was a very real threat to women 
20:47 Epistate Philemon: If Corinna is a composite, maybe she could be both his wife and not his wife at the same time.
20:47 Morgana Flavius: Anyhow, the penalty for adultery was not death. It was banishment to a distant island (Lex Poppaea, in Augustus'time). And it was applied to men and women alike, as long as the woman invovled was a free born married lady.
20:48 Aldicius Amaru: a very real threat to women who had no legal property or identity of their own.
20:49 Epistate Philemon: You're right, Aldicius.  But that was also the case in, say, 19th-century Britain (women, but not men, could be divorced for adultery, and then they would have no recourse but to enter a life of prostitution if their blood families cast them off), but those upper-class women were pretty wild until Victoria really started putting her foot down.
20:49 Aldicius Amaru: The death penalty was part of the old Roman family law tradition, Morgana, by which a woman was in the power (manu) of the senior male. The Augustan  laws were an attempt to add teeth to an existing tradition.
20:50 Morgana Flavius: Green goes even further, saying that Ovid and his first wife could be the sort of couple that engages in "dangereuse liasons" just to add some extra sauce to the otherwise dull marriage life. Therefore, Corinna could have been his wife and not his wife, as Epistate said.
20:50 Torrey Philemon: Ovid/Ovid's persona doesn't seem concerned about the potential consequences if he or his lady lust are caught.......
20:50 Nimue Cormac: victoria couldn't have been too prim and proper with all the kids she had
20:51 Aldicius Amaru: No, Torrey, which is why the accepted opinion is that Ovid's Corinna was the type of mistress found in the elegiac tradition: freedwomen of easy virtue.
20:52 Epistate Philemon: She sure wasn't!  Some of her letters to her daughter make me blush, they're so explicit about her relationship with Albert (and I wonder about John Brown, too).  But she's the one who said "We're not going to keep looking the other way."  Women in that period had no property either.  I think in many ways it's a parallel.
20:53 Aldicius Amaru: But back to Epistate's point, there really is no strong evidence for large numbers of loose-living matronae. The elegists and their circle were whast might be called demi-mondaines.
20:54 Aldicius Amaru: The Roman cultural tradition was very different from the Victorian.
20:54 Torrey Philemon: I always wondered how women who had affairs managed to keep from getting pregnant back before birth control..........there must have been a lot of female secrets passed down through the ages........
20:54 Morgana Flavius: Another interesting comment by Green is that in Books 1 and 2 of Amores, Ovid "plays" (whether fictional or real) the adolescent in love with his lover. But in Book 3, a more self-protecting man emerges... in book 3 we see an Ovid fully engaged in the "love game" he had only envisioned in the previous books.
20:55 Torrey Philemon: Also, Augustan's laws, were they generally ignored? Was it obvious that many people were breaking them.....but few were punished? So that the law was actually only enforced when there was  a  real political reason for doing so (like Ovid  becoming a real threat to the Augustan regime)?
20:55 Nimue Cormac: there are a lot of abortive herbs
20:55 Aldicius Amaru: Most of the evidence comes from literary sources, which are highly suspect. Juvenal's Sixth Satire, for instance, which talks about noble women foisting the children of slaves or gladiators on their husbands.
20:57 Torrey Philemon: How do you see him more fully engaged in the love game in book 3, Morgana? It seems like he's genuinely upset, angry, humiliated, as he loses Corinna....he experiences the consequence of his gameplaying when the dice turn against him.
20:57 Nimue Cormac: RU242 the abortion pill is actually a derivative od rue...a well known herb in ancient times
20:57 Aldicius Amaru: I don't think there's any suggestion that Ovid was any real threat to Augustus. The cause of his exile is still a mystery: carmen et error. He may have been involved with people who were, though. In the exilic literature, there is some suggestion that he
20:58 Epistate Philemon: Do you mean freedwoman of easy virtue as in "courtesan," or as in "married woman of insufficient rank for it to matter if she's fooling around"?
20:58 bell Domitius exits...
20:58 Nimue Cormac enters...
20:58 Aldicius Amaru: saw what he shouldn't have seen, entirely by mistake.
20:58 Morgana Flavius: It seems that abortion was something common in Roman society of the 1st century BC and AD. It's not difficult to believe it when we read Amores, Book 2, 13.
20:59 Torrey Philemon: Interesting, Nimue. Undoubtedly there is an ancient tradition of herbs to prevent childbirth........and many medications are developed from herbs!
20:59 Aldicius Amaru: Could be either, Epistate. Remember, freedwoman were often the wives of their former coservi--fellow slaves.
20:59 Epistate Philemon: Sorry, that last remark posted very late.  And your last remark got cut off, Aldicius.
20:59 Torrey Philemon: (But abortion was more dangerous then then it is now. I wonder if Ovid's reaction to Corinna's abortion was partly due to the danger, is fear of losing her!)
20:59 Nimue Cormac: it was commonly available
21:00 Epistate Philemon: Oh, okay, there's the rest of the remark...  the refresh button isn't working too fast.
21:01 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Aldicius, was it Green that focused on Ovid seeing what he shouldn't have seen by mistake, and then not reporting it? Whatever kind of incident could that have been?
21:01 Aldicius Amaru: Yes, I saw that, so I followed it up a line or two down. It seems that chats don't post as many characters as they used to.
21:01 Morgana Flavius: Yes, in book three Ovid is psychologically devasted by Corinna's betrayal... and he sets himself to never be faithful himself (as it seems he has primarily tried faithfulness and then betrayal, in a sequence.)
21:01 Aldicius Amaru: *G* My refresh is working so fast I can hardly keep up with the conversation. And the Preference button reufses to work.
21:02 Aldicius Amaru: *Refuses* to work.
21:02 Epistate Philemon: Of course, the British tradition is very different from the Roman (Roman law, etc., notwithstanding), but isn't human nature pretty much the same?  We seem to always be looking for boundaries to cross.
21:02 Torrey Philemon: Aldicius, you may need to exit and return to get it working right......
21:03 Aldicius Amaru: Remember that Ovid is writing as the last in a tradition of elegiac poets. Many of his subjects were already "set pieces."
21:04 Aldicius Amaru: The difference, Epistate, is that a family under Victoria would send an erring daughter abroad to live in retirement, in a quiet place with a small allowance so she wouldn't have any opportunity to repeat.
21:04 Epistate Philemon: Certainly that idea of "I've been hurt so I will make sure I never lay myself to being hurt again" idea is an old set piece...even in ancient Rome!
21:05 Morgana Flavius: I first read the comment and then I read the poem. A mistake. Anyhow, when I read the abortion poem, I had the impression of Ovid as a man scared to death of losing his lover. Only concerned about the child because having a child seemed to have less dangerous than getting rid of it in ancient times.
21:05 Aldicius Amaru: *G* You can compare that to the exile of Julia, of course, but remember, Augustus's daughter & granddaughter died of starvation.That would not have happened under Victoria.
21:05 Nimue Cormac: and with luck she could have the baby and come back and marry
21:05 Epistate Philemon: I'm thinking about married women who transgress.  Daughters who transgress are a real problem, because they're supposed to be virgins (in both traditions).
21:06 Torrey Philemon: And I'm wondering how many times the sexual laws were ignored, but only enforced when it suited someone's purpose.......
21:06 Epistate Philemon: Wives who transgress might be foisting somebody else's child on their husbands as an heir.  If a woman was married, the family didn't have to take her back (as they would be expected to care for a virgin daughter).  Often they didn't.
21:07 Aldicius Amaru: It's more a conventionn of genre than an emotional tone.If you compare Ovid with other Latin elegists like Propertius or Tibullus (whose mistresses were both of the "kept woman" variety) you'll see the difference at once.
21:07 Nimue Cormac: of course that is a property isue epistate
21:07 Morgana Flavius: (sorry, my sentences are coming out a bit cumbersome because I'm writing fast and no checking back before posting)
21:07 Torrey Philemon: (Do you know that there are old laws against oral sex still in a number of U.S. states? It's still on the books in Massachusetts, but hasn't been enforced in decades. I wonder what would have happened if it pertained to Washington D.C.!!)
21:08 Aldicius Amaru: In most elite Victorian families, a daughter who transgressed would be "pensioned off" quietly by her natal family--usually with a strict female relative for chaperone.
21:08 Morgana Flavius: (and I tend to "swallow" not only letters but entire words when I type fast)
21:08 Epistate Philemon: That idea about suiting one's purpose is certainly apt.  You want an excuse to get rid of your wife without paying back her dowry?  Hire yourself a detective.
21:09 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Epistate, about fatherhood. Women who transgress raise the issue of who's the father of their child -  a threat to the social structure!
21:09 Aldicius Amaru: Yes, Nimue--absolutely right. And for the Romans, as for most people until quite recently, marriage was all about family (i.e. clan) and property and how you keep the two together. Romance didn't enter into it.
21:09 Aldicius Amaru: Which is what makes it very unlikely that Ovid's Corinna was his wife or noble--if she was even real.
21:10 Nimue Cormac: maybe it was all a sexual fantasy
21:11 Aldicius Amaru: BTW, Torrey, do you happen to have the URL for that webpage you mentioned in your most recent posts? I'd like to take a look at the readings for that class.
21:11 Epistate Philemon: Some fantasy.  Nightmare, more like!
21:12 Aldicius Amaru: "Fantasy" is a little harsh. The tradition of the elegiac lover and his mistress goes back to Catullus and the beginning of the Latin love elegy.
21:12 Aldicius Amaru: Ovid was very popular (along with Vergil) in the Middle Ages, and the elegiac poet was the basis for the romantic poetry of the troubadours and the Courts of Love. Highly idealized and Christianized, of course.
21:13 Aldicius Amaru: So much of what Ovid was doing was a tour de force: Watch me, guys!
21:13 Morgana Flavius: Aldicius, that's what Green challenges. Scholars tend to view Corinna as a purely fictional character because marriages did no mean love. And Ovid was very conscious of that, and probably was ashamed and wanting to hide it from his fellow companions. Ovid could have been trapped in the "peasant" game of having fallen in love with his own wife!
21:14 Aldicius Amaru: But not in the sense of any real life sexual prowess. Rather, he was manipulating a literary convention so deftly that no one had thee to take it up after him. He was the last of the elegists.
21:15 Nimue Cormac: a lot of it still makes me think of high school guys bragging on a monday morning.....whether it happened or not
21:15 Epistate Philemon: Hey, Morgana, now THAT's an interesting possibility!
21:15 Aldicius Amaru: On the contrary, Morgana, contemporary writings very much emphasize that love should grow out of the arranged marriage. There's no evidence that they considered "peasants" more likely to fall in love than elevated noble characters. Far from it.
21:17 Torrey Philemon: (Aldicius, I'll have to hunt for that web site..... There was only a page or two introduction to Amores and Art of Love with some professor's comments, and a study guide. Actually I think was referring to two professors' sites.) 
21:17 Morgana Flavius: About how much of the law was enforced in Ovid's time (very interesting your comment about laws against oral sex still present in some US States, Torrey!), I think that what happened then (and still happens now) is that the law exists, but society generally does not accept it. So, yes, the transgressors still break the law, but in a more concealed way.
21:17 Epistate Philemon: It's true that Aeneas loves Creusa (like a good Roman should), but the extramarital relationship with Dido seems more passionate.  I think there's affectionate (positive, family-based love) and passionate (illicit, dangerous) love.
21:17 Aldicius Amaru: There's a very good book by Susan Treggiari, called Roman Marriage. She e contemporary "moralizing sources," epigraphical and legal evidence to reconstruct the Roman view of "proper" married family life.
21:18 Aldicius Amaru: But remember, Epistate, Dido considered herself married to Aeneas, and if he weren't reminded by the goddess of his duty to found the city, he would probably have stayed in Carthage as her hhusband. He says so, later in the visit to the underworld.
21:18 Torrey Philemon: Does anyone remember about what Green said about why/how Ovid's first marriage dissolved? I'm not sure there's much info on that available.
21:19 Aldicius Amaru: The relationship between Dido and Aeneas is not an illicit extra-marital one but a courtship gone awry.
21:19 Nimue Cormac: the greeks actually had 3 different words for love. one passionate...one filial...one general
21:20 Epistate Philemon: Dido considers this to be true, but then Aeneas emphatically points out before he leaves that they were not, so she has no claim on him.  It's a very harsh scene, but shows that he never really believed there was a marriage there--or even a commitment that couldn't be broken.
21:21 Morgana Flavius: Well, Aldicius, from all I have read about customs in Augustan Roman society, falling in love with one's own spouse was considered very unfashionable. I'm not talking about what modern scholars say. I'm talking about what Ovidian society thought. And what Green says is exactly that only NOW scholars are aware of how combersome it was inTHOSE times.
21:21 Epistate Philemon: And don't forget, Nimue, the distinction Plato makes between physical and spiritual love.  So there's another distinction!
21:21 Aldicius Amaru: No, because he had a prior, over-riding commitment--the destiny given him by the gods, which was stronger than amy earthly betrothal.
21:22 Torrey Philemon: On another note, folks, what do you all think of the two passages  - book 2  - in which Ovid says he didn't sleep with Corinna's maid, and then in the next passage confesses that he did?
21:22 Aldicius Amaru: Well, the point Morgana, is that Ovid was no more typical of Roman elite society than Jacquelyn Susann's novels exemplify the lifestyle of the Republican (George Bush) country club set.
21:23 Aldicius Amaru: Ovid belonged to a group of people--the demimonde, which existed outside the "serious" political world of most members of the Roman upper class. To accept his poetry as accurate & descriptive is rather far-reaching.
21:24 Aldicius Amaru: n makes that claim.
21:24 Epistate Philemon: Did he sleep with her before or after he slept with Corinna?  In Ars Amatoria, he says by all means sleep with the maid, but it's important not to sleep with her FIRST, or she might get jealous rather than helping the lover gain access to her mistress!
21:24 Morgana Flavius: Green says that Ovid's first marriage dissolved due to infidelity carried "a bit too far". (I'm not sure if it was his wife's infidelity or Ovid's or both)
21:25 Aldicius Amaru: ARGH! Cut off again. I said, I don't believe thast Green makes that claim.
21:27 Morgana Flavius: Ovid may not have been a member of the upper class Roman society, but he certainly wrote for that class and was very well received by them (except for Augustus and his restrict group of "moral keepers")
21:27 Aldicius Amaru: That Ovid was reflecting the world of the Roman elite. Actually, we have no evidence for the cause of Ovid's divorce. It's all speculation, like the claim that Corinna was his first wife.
21:27 Torrey Philemon: He was involved with Corinna already when he dallied with her maid, and denied it to Corinna and his readers, before confessing......Interesting about whose infidelity in regard to first marriage, Morgana. Maybe it was both. Hmm, I'm having flashbacks to coming of age in the late  60s/70s when everyone was screwing around and infidelity was "fashionable"!
21:28 Morgana Flavius: Excellent question, Epistate. Which brings me to another interesting discussion about Ovid: he was the master of "love rethoric" if I'm allowed to introduce this concept here.
21:29 Epistate Philemon: I take it "a bit too far" refers to indiscretion, rather than to how many lovers he had?  Maybe he didn't play the game as well as he thought he did?
21:29 Aldicius Amaru: The contradictory information is another dication that thisrabyt real life here. The epigrammatist, Martial, does the same thing in poems about his 'wife." Actually there's no suggestiion that Martial ever married. Poets put on and take off personaa like
21:30 Torrey Philemon: You are allowed, Morgana! <-:
21:31 Aldicius Amaru: The server is crunching my words again. These inconsistencies indicate that ovid's persona here is not identical with himself.
21:32 Morgana Flavius: It means that Ovid would often defend one side of a quarrel and then switch to the other side, defending it with equal passion. So, he says"I did not sleep with the maid because it would not fit a man of my class to do so";  and right after that he would say "I slept with the maid, because it is a noble thing to do since Achilles slept with his maid Briseis"
21:32 Aldicius Amaru: But there is no evidence that infidelity was the cause of Ovid's divorce. That's mere speculation again. Circular reasoning.
21:32 Epistate Philemon: Sure, I always figured "Ovid" himself was a composite persona.  He puts together his own experiences, his friends' experiences...anything is grist for the mill.
21:32 Torrey Philemon: I find it hard to believe that Ovid would have portrayed himself as impotent then Corinna leaving him for another who was more potent if there wasn't a grain of truth in the story. Why would he otherwise portray himself in such a negative light? It seems to me that he was trying to exorcise his demons by writing about them.
21:33 Aldicius Amaru: Typically Ovidian hyperbole, Morgana. He does it all the time in his work--metamorphoses, Heroides, Ars Amatoria.. By the time Ovid has beaten an image into the dust no one can take it seriously again.
21:34 Epistate Philemon: Interesting that he uses a mythological parallel.  Especially because, as was pointed out earlier, this is a slave society and it should be okay to sleep with the maid.  In Greece, there would have been no question that a man might sleep with his wife's maid.
21:34 Aldicius Amaru: It wobe hard to find a less "tortured" poet than Ovid. Far froith  demons, he's holding up a critical  lens to his society. he's an observer, not a participant, whatever his poetic persona.
21:35 Morgana Flavius: Epistate and Aldicious: I see Ovid as the ultimate "game player". Either the love game player, or the rethorician game player. Saying one thing and then saying he didn't say it is Ovid's game. And he's very irritated (as depicted in some poems in Amores) when the other players don't act as expected by them in their respective roles of lover, mistress, betrayed husband, maid, etc.
21:35 Epistate Philemon: I agree about the impotence.  Especially because he returned to the topic in a later work.
21:36 Torrey Philemon: I agree that he mostly seems detached, Aldicius, but there's a constant background of emotional torment going on at the same time, especially in book 3.  I don't think he could have written that if he hadn't experienced some of it, if even in a detached intellectualized way. One can't really describe feelings one hasn't experienced.
21:37 Aldicius Amaru: Ovid is a jokester, a satirist. Poetry in the ancient world was conventional, not confessional. You have to wait for the Romantics and pre-Romantics for that.
21:37 Aldicius Amaru: I think most authors would disagree with that, Torrey.
21:38 Aldicius Amaru: But Ovid's tone is far from serious in the Amores, or anywhere else.
21:38 Epistate Philemon: I also agree about the idea of roles.  He really does want everygbody to fit into their respective boxes.  Maybe that's why he was attracted to the mythological topics in Metamorphoses: everything has a role to fulfill, in order to bring about what is destined to happen.
21:39 Torrey Philemon: Well as an author myself, Aldicius, I know I can't effectively portray feelings I haven't experienced.......One can alter them and exaggerate them and change them, but unless there's a seed it somewhere it doesn't really work. Most actors would say the same thing......
21:39 Aldicius Amaru: But Metamorphoses is ultimately about change. It's unlikely anything was foreordained.
21:40 Morgana Flavius: I do agree with you, Aldicius. I first found this Ovidian trend to speak on behalf of both sides in a quarrel when I first read his Heroides. And yes, Ovid seemed to have been a "tortured" poet and also someone who had the power to "beat an image into dust" very easily AND then restore it to its previous status at will too.
21:40 Aldicius Amaru: Method actors would agree, but classically trained stage actors would disagree. John Gielgud, for instance, found Marlon Brando both amusing and annoying on the set of Julius Caesar.
21:41 Aldicius Amaru: We look at the ancients across a wide gulf,  made wider by 19th C. Romanticism. We can't go back, but we can try to set aside our assumption that our own ways are universal ones.
21:42 Aldicius Amaru: Any writer who writes about a broad range of subjects and characters must ultimately deal with things s/he caot have felt. Shakespeare, for instance.
21:43 Torrey Philemon: I think we get into conflict when we try to categorize Ovid in any one way. For example, there are passages in Metamorphoses in which he reveals an incredible capacity to get into the depths of feelings of his mythical characters and reveal them with  uncanny psychological insight. And there are other superficial passages where he barely skims the surface. He's all over the place. It's my impression is that as soon as he enters deep waters however, he has to rush out onto dry land and take a detached, intellectual stance once more, to protect himself.
21:43 Aldicius Amaru: But Ovid didn't restore those images to status quo--he left them eviscerated. No one took up the genre again in Latin literature after Ovid.
21:45 Morgana Flavius: You have a point, Aldicius, but so does Torrey. I think that in each literary period, authors try to convey their own emotions in the form that literature take at their time. If it's not confessional (as I agree it was not during Ovid's time) than confessions had to be disguised in irony or a detached approach. In the Romantic lieterary time, confession was the game of the day, so even more frivolous satire tended to come out as deep personal outbursts.
21:46 Aldicius Amaru: ovid is not an author who has been known for his depth.  sometimes, he has been criticized for the opposite extreme--shallowness--which I think is unfair. But his touch is always light, satirical and detached. It doesn't do to project our own concerns  
21:46 Nimue Cormac enters...
21:47 Epistate Philemon: It's true; as soon as he gets into the more disturbing psychological depths he heads for the shallows again.  It reminds me of somebody who is known for a certain kind of light humor, who gets funny looks when s/he ventures to start sounding "deep."
21:48 Epistate Philemon: Hi, Nimue!  How're the mosquito bites?
21:48 Morgana Flavius: Hum... Epistate... are you talking about someone here in the chatroom? (LOL!)
21:49 Aldicius Amaru: That assumes that 1) all poets want to pour out their emotions, which is a very Romantic preconception and 2) contradicts Torrey's suggestion that Ovid was avoiding self-revelation
21:49 Torrey Philemon: We've been through this before, Aldicius. There IS some psychological depth in Ovid's portrayal of characters and there is ALSO superficiality. It irks me when you make authoritarian statements about "he always"! Anyone can dispute you on that! ALWAYS statements are dangerous. Let's try to be inclusive ("there are many Ovids") rather than exclusive ("there is only one Ovid, and only one valid point of view"), ok?
21:49 Epistate Philemon: Of course, it is also true that, as Morgana says, in the Romantic period you could get by with it.  Lord Byron, for instance, did it all the time and people loved him for it, even when he burst out with invective in the middle of his lighter poems.  But Ovid's tone is much more even.
21:50 Epistate Philemon: Now, Morgana...!!  I was thinking more of somebody like Robin Williams.  When he gets serious, people look at him squiggle-eyed and wait impatiently for him to say something funny.
21:51 Aldicius Amaru: Ovid's poetic persona is pretty clear to those who read the original Latin and have some familiarity with the literary and social context of his time. To suggest that these later (and to him incomprehensible) obsessions are somehow coming out in  his poet
21:51 Epistate Philemon: Most people.  Not all people.  (Torrey, I know you loved "What Dreams May Come," but it didn't do so well at the box office).
21:51 Aldicius Amaru: coming out in his poetry is to see that which is not there, and wanting doesn't make it so.
21:51 Morgana Flavius: Well, I assumed that all of us here are taking it for granted that there's no evidence as to who Ovid really was in his real life. All we can do is speculate and do that on the grounds of our own personal feelings after reading Ovid. Whatever our opinion is, it cannot be proved, unless we get Ovid himself here (perhaps channeled by some sensitive spirit?) to tell us what really happened. (LOL!)
21:53 Aldicius Amaru: Well, we do know who Ovid was. He was much written about in and after his time. he was a prominent figure in the literary world of Augustan Rome.
21:53 Aldicius Amaru: I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave now. A very important halloween party beckons. Avete omnes.
21:54 Epistate Philemon: Enjoy!
21:55 Torrey Philemon: Ah, don't let the goblins get you! And remember to change your clock tonight!
21:55 Morgana Flavius: I think Ovid was smart enough to comply with the requirements of elegiac poetry (dettached, and often ironic) AND use his own life experiences as well as his friends' experiences as the source for his poems.
21:56 Epistate Philemon: Hey, is tonight the clock switcheroo?  About time, too...I'm tired of getting up in the dark.
21:57 Morgana Flavius: It was nice to have you with us, Aldicius! Enjoy your evening!
21:57 Torrey Philemon: I think part of what hooks people is a combination of what appears to be personal revelation or baring of soul - and withholding or mystery. Ovid is a master at weaving both together.
21:58 Torrey Philemon: (Nimue keeps getting bumped and is trying to get in one last time)
21:58 Morgana Flavius: Oh, you're going too, Epistate? It was also a good surprise to have you with us too!
21:58 Epistate Philemon: I think that's what makes Ovid--and all great poets--great.  Working within a given genre, but making it your own by adding something to it.  If you're really good at it, you can get it to sound absolutely natural, as if the genre were adapting itself to you rather than the other way around.
21:59 Nimue Cormac enters...
21:59 Epistate Philemon: Huh?  I didn't say I was going.  I'm just thrilled about changing the clocks.
22:00 Morgana Flavius: Anyway, for me it is impossible to read Ovid and think he's being exclusively fictional or exclusively real. To me, he's always both and usually at the same time! LOL!
22:00 Torrey Philemon: Welcome back Nimue! And I'm so glad you came, Epistate. Will you return when we do Ars Amatorio?
22:00 Epistate Philemon: Going back to what I just said about how a really good poet can make the genre fit him (or her) so well it seems natural...I wonder if maybe that could be part of the reason why Ovid "killed" some subjects/genres for those who followed him?  He was just too good.
22:01 Morgana Flavius: Oh, sorry, Epistate! I misundertood you! Please stay with us then!
22:01 Epistate Philemon: I'll return if I can.
22:01 Nimue Cormac: i'm still not convinced this qualifies as a classic. it only made it, in my opinion because of metamorphosis
22:02 Epistate Philemon: I meant, I'll return for Ars Amatoria..  Hey, Morgana, I'm with you on that idea of his not being altogether a truth-teller or altogether a liar.  Then again, which of us are?  Are we COMPLETELY honest even in our letters?  Of course not, because even if we're telling the truth we leave things out--usually to make ourselves sound good.
22:03 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, I'm reminded of a great science fiction book by Colin Wilson, The Mind Parasites. Wilson combines factual archaeological and psychological information - proven and accepted - with fictional theories which he presents as truth and weaves them together to tell a very evocative story. That blend of fact and fantasy in a manner in which you can't separate the two is very compelling.
22:03 Morgana Flavius: Epistate, I fully agree with you! You just read my thoughts! That's exactly what I think: Ovid was so good at adapting the genre he was writing to his own purposes that no one was able to come up with something new after that and still be accredited for it.
22:04 Epistate Philemon: True, Nimue.  Well, because of Metamorphoses and Ars Amatoria.  I suspect people hung onto Amores because it was the work of a famous author.
22:04 Torrey Philemon: But it's interesting, Epistate, that Ovid seems to purposefully make himself look bad - not only in regard to his deceptiveness, lying etc. but later his impotence, humiliation, failure etc.
22:05 Torrey Philemon: It helps to realize that Ovid was about 18-19 when he wrote the Amores.....He viewed life through his libido and the urge for excitement.......
22:06 Epistate Philemon: Oh, yes, but we do that in letters, too, don't we?  I mean, we'll confess certain things that make us look bad.  But only those things that we are willing to face up to.  There are always certain subjects that are off limits.
22:06 Morgana Flavius: Well, assuming that what Aldicius said is a true fact (I didn't know that no one has written elegiac poetry after Ovid).
22:06 Torrey Philemon: What subjects would you say that Ovid "killed", Epistate? I'm out of my league on this topic......
22:06 Epistate Philemon: What's off limits will depend on who you are.
22:07 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Epistate! We can share vices that we've faced and accepted in ourselves.....but we will rarely share those we haven't faced or accepted!
22:08 Epistate Philemon: I'm referring to Aldicius's remark (and assuming he's correct--he seemed very certain of it).  Roman poetry is not my field; my specialization is British literature.  I can tell you for a fact that Milton killed epic when he wrote "Paradise Lost"...
22:08 Morgana Flavius: I think writing is always like this, no matter what genre you write. You cannot be totally fictional nor totally real. And yes, Epistate, I'd say that it applies to letters too.
22:10 Epistate Philemon: As for facing and accepting things...well, if Ovid was only 18 or 19, you KNOW he had to figure that impotence was likely to be only a temporary situation...
22:10 Torrey Philemon: (I'm reading Paradise Lost now for a real life course I'm taking on Adam and Eve, and  it's got to be the most boring epic ever written!)  <-:
22:10 Morgana Flavius: Ladies, a couple of hours more and we'll end up by reading each others' minds! LOL!
22:11 Epistate Philemon: Uh oh...it's a Halloween convergence!
22:12 Epistate Philemon: Boring, Torrey?  You're kidding--with all that sexy stuff going on in the Garden of Eden?
22:12 Torrey Philemon: At the moment of the time change we'll all psychically merge and turn into telepathic pumpkins!
22:14 Torrey Philemon: (Well, Epistate, some Christians say that there was no sex in the garden of Eden......Eden was a pure place! However the Jews found the garden to be VERY FERTILE <-: )
22:14 Epistate Philemon: Also regarding impotence--most kids that age think it's a terribly funny idea, don't they, since it isn't exactly something that is likely to concern them much, and certainly not on a permanent basis?  Only older people are willing to confess publicly to being worried about it.
22:15 Torrey Philemon: You know, I'm wondering.....why is Amores read today? Is it because it just happens to be by Ovid? Or is there something  unique about it.....like no other author of those times dared to write about such topics or in such a manner?
22:15 Epistate Philemon: Milton says there IS sex in the Garden of Eden.  That's what all that perpetual fountain of domestic bliss stuff is about.  Those Puritans were sexy characters--they had a reputation for it.
22:15 Morgana Flavius: Well, I see it this way: Ovid was a freshman in Roman rethoric (speech)  school. He had learned how to defend arguments (often opposite) in the most persuasive way. He used that skill in his poetry. In Amores, he was practically and adolescent with all that comes with that (yuck!)... In Ars Amatoria, which I haven't read but had heard a lot about, he is much more mature and takes up the same theme of Amores, but now in an even more debauched way. And he probably killed the genre by breaking the tradition of being irrefutably fictional, so people would always wonder - after his poems - how much is real and how much is fiction. Much like we're doing now.
22:16 Torrey Philemon: So why would an 18-19 year old boy expose an experience or two of being impotent? That wouldn't be typical today! But I doubt if Ovid would have invented it if he had never experienced it. It would be too demeaning to an adolescent male ego, wouldn't it?
22:16 Epistate Philemon: I think it's only read as much as it is because it's by Ovid.  Oh, it'd be read, all right--any fragment of Roman poetry we've got is going to be read by somebody.  But I doubt it would find its way to as many syllabi as it does now.  It's convenient to be able to say "Let's compare the Ovid of Amores with the Ovid of Ars Amatoria with the Ovid of Metamorphoses."
22:18 Morgana Flavius: The suspicious that it might not be totally fiction probably killed the elegiac poetry genre.
22:18 Epistate Philemon: He might expose it because he's being a class clown?  Like the way somebody would describe an embarrassing incident as long as they were sure the listener was aware this wasn't a typical experience?
22:19 Epistate Philemon: The suspicion that it might not be fiction, or the suspicion that it might not be real?
22:19 Torrey Philemon: My memory is vague......but I  recall reading somewhere, maybe in Green, that Ovid seemed to mature in regard to being capable of genuine love/attachment for his wife later in life, though he may have been separated from her then.....Do any of you know when he wrote the Heroides?.......And in what tone he expresses himself in his writings during exile? My impression is that he comes across as pathetic......not regretting what he had done, but that he had been punished for it! (still adolescent, in that way)
22:21 Epistate Philemon: Oh, he's terribly pathetic in the poems he writes in exile.  Lemme go see if I can find that out for you about the Heroides...
22:21 Morgana Flavius: The impotence issue, Torrey, was probably one of the things Ovid used to add the touch of reality in his poems... but it seems that this was not Ovid's original creation. Apparently, the theme was used by poets before him as well.
22:23 Morgana Flavius: Elegiac poetry was seen as pure fictional (as a genre). Adding a suspicious that it was not fictional would "kill" it as a genre.
22:24 Epistate Philemon: I've got a book here (Harold C. Cannon's introduction to his translation of the Heroides) that speculates there were two sets of poems in the Heroides.  The first was written very early--before Amores--and the second quite a bit later, after Ovid had been exiled.  Cannon makes it clear, however, that this is speculation only.
22:24 Torrey Philemon: I haven't read Heroides and would like to sometime....
22:25 Morgana Flavius: Heroides was written before Amores. Ovid refers to the letters of Heroides in Amores, even telling that a fellow poet (Sabinus) wrote replies to the Heroides letters.
22:25 Epistate Philemon: He says there's a reference to the Heroides in Amores 2, which would indicate the first few poems were written first.
22:25 Torrey Philemon: I think you both have read them.......does Ovid reveal a deeper and wider understanding of love and passion there?
22:25 Torrey Philemon: BEFORE Amores? He sure was young!
22:26 Morgana Flavius: Oh, I didn't know about the two sets of Heroides, Epistate! How interesting! That brings me to another Ovidian issue: that of re-editing his works.
22:26 Torrey Philemon: I do think Ars Amatoria was written at two different time periods too......BTW one of the web sites I was referring to earlier was a 24 page (printed) study guide to Ars Amatoria that also includes some material on Amores.
22:28 Morgana Flavius: Ok. Amores also had "two sets". The first time it was published when Ovid was around 18. And it had 5 books. Later on, Ovid cut 2 books (Green speculates that these 2 books were stronger evidences of real life characters).
22:28 Epistate Philemon: However, he says also that the last six letters have had their authenticity questioned because of the idiom, meter, and vocabulary being different.  Cannon says, "I wonder myself whether these last six poems could be ascribed to the period of Ovid's exile; by his own account he learned Getic, the local language, well enough to compose poetry in it, and he complains often in the Tristia of the dearth of opportunities for conversing in Latin in that remote spot.  In the Letters from Pontus he frequently mentions that he did not have the energy or care to correct his poetry or make it worthy of him--this could explain some of the awkward expressions used in the last six poems."
22:28 Torrey Philemon: (Ah here it is in my bookmarks.....  http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/love-in-the-arts/ovid.html   At least that's one of them )
22:29 Epistate Philemon: Does Green speculate that the reason for removing those real life characters had something to do with Augustus's wrath and Ovid's resultant exile?
22:30 Morgana Flavius: And Torrey, my personal feeling towards the Heroides is that it is not a deep psychological dive in women's psyche'... but rather a brilliant exercise of "love rethoric"... that is, Ovid getting on the other side of wide known mythological couples where women were unfairly abandoned by their lovers.
22:31 Epistate Philemon: Oh, I love that site, Torrey!  I've just been having my students read his page on Sakuntala, the classic Indian play about love and redemption.
22:32 Torrey Philemon: Haven't seen that, Epistate! Will have to check it out more!
22:32 Epistate Philemon: Right, Morgana...there isn't a heck of a lot of psychological insight in the Heroides, and it's full of cliches.  Nothing like those beautiful passages in the Metamorphoses.
22:33 Morgana Flavius: Epistate: I think that Green speculates that the reason for removing was not political but rather personal. Ovid (after all) might be embarassed by some verses he wrote in his adolescence and took them out.
22:35 Epistate Philemon: If he wasn't embarrassed by impotence, one has to wonder what DID embarrass him.  Then again, as we've been saying, what might be off limits for one person might be perfectly within another person's comfort zone.
22:35 Torrey Philemon: Since you mention it, Epistate, what you like in Metamorphoses? I think that Ovid has some marvelous passages, especially in the first half of the book when he fully enters the psyche of some of this characters......but then he deteriorates and skims the surface much of the time, as if he's trying to get it over with so he can jump into bed with his current paramour.
22:36 Epistate Philemon: I like the passages about the Trojan War.  I think they're really powerful.  The part about the fall of Troy is lovely, really moving, but I think my favorite part is the dispute between Ajax and Ulysses for Achilles' armor.
22:36 Morgana Flavius: And back to what Torrey asked before, Green also says that Ovid expressed in his late writings (in exile) that he was finally able to build up a constructive and honest relationship with his third wife. Again: how much is real and how much is fiction on that one?
22:38 Torrey Philemon: (Yes, we had a good chat on the subject of that dispute. Have you looked at some of our Ovid transcripts? That subject was really interesting!)
22:38 Epistate Philemon: The passages about incest are powerful, too--like his bit about Myrrhia (or was it Myrrha?  Adonis's mother, I mean, who turns into the myrrh tree).  He does this really well in Heroides, too; I think the epistle from Canace to Marcareus is my favorite, despite the fact it's not exactly a famous story.
22:39 Morgana Flavius: Ah, we had an interesting exchange of postings and chat talks about that dispute between Ulisses and Ajax, when we were reading Metamorphoses. But the Trojan war really let me down... I thought Ovid was so quick when telling that story (I'm talking about the fall of the city itself)...
22:39 Torrey Philemon: You know, Morgana, about his relationship with his last wife......weren't they separated because of his exile? If so, I can imagine that Ovid was  more capable of a caring relationship when sex was out of the question! He couldn't play sexual games with her if he couldn't have her sexually! <-:
22:39 Epistate Philemon: No, I never did get around to looking at the Ovid transcripts.  Really enjoyed the Homer transcripts, though.
22:40 Epistate Philemon: It was the description of Cassandra and Hecuba that moved me in Ovid's account of the fall of Troy.
22:40 Torrey Philemon: Yes, in Metamorphoses, a few times he really gets into the psyche of a woman tormented by jealousy or incest or unrequited love...and he does that so well! But as Morgana said, sometimes he completely skims over potentially dramatic subjects.
22:42 Torrey Philemon: Epistate, we have 11 transcripts of Metamorphoses posted.....at bottom of page here http://www.ancientsites.com/~Torrey_Philemon/thalassa/ovid.htm#MythQuest    Don't remember which one was the Ajax/Ulysses argument though but we did spend some time discussing it.... Actually here it is, in chat 9  http://www.ancientsites.com/~Torrey_Philemon/thalassa/ovidchat9.htm
22:46 Morgana Flavius: And regarding the verses about impotence being left and others cut, in Amores 2, I think that speaking about his own impotence (again whether fictional or real) was not bad, but verses that could reveal the real identity of Corinna, for instance, could be very embarrassing for Ovid. Actually, Green says that some verses might have slipped through Ovid's editorial "scissor", like the ones where he says that Corinna and he shared the same familiar bed and same household gods. How could she be the mistress (taken for granted as such in elegiac poetry) if she shared things that only a spouse would?
22:46 Torrey Philemon: (I also want to appreciate Morgana for sticking with ALL of Metamorphoses, not to mention The Divine Comedy as well! )
22:47 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Morgana, I guess we do have to credit Ovid for trying to protect Corinna in that way ----- not revealing her identity!
22:49 Morgana Flavius: But again, Amores does not seem to be an extraordinary work. Of course, what we have is a translation and therefore we cannot analyze its merits as a masterpiece in its original language (Latin). Maybe it has a higher value on that ground...
22:49 Epistate Philemon: Trying to protect Corinna...or trying to protect Ovid?  I keep thinking about Catullus's smug remarks about how clever he and Lesbia are to be carrying on underneath her husband's nose--all Lesbia has to do is say something nasty about Catullus and it throws hubby off the scent.
22:51 Torrey Philemon: Hmm. Protecting Corinna AND Ovid........(hey folks, it's getting late. should we call it a night?)
22:51 Morgana Flavius: I'm looking forward to Ars Amatoria! Let's see what a presumably more mature Ovid has to say on the love theme and how he goes about saying it within the limits of elegiac poetry! *g*
22:51 Epistate Philemon: I've been looking at the transcript...that was an interesting conversation!  Me, I've always thought that the reason Ulysses prevailed was because he made a veiled threat.  Ajax believed that his colleagues would do the right thing, and all he had to do was make the strongest argument.  Ulysses, on the other hand, openly threatens to refuse to help them convince Philoctetes to return...and they know he has to or they'll lose the war.
22:53 Epistate Philemon: Yeah, Torrey, you're right--it's getting late.  Let's hit the hay.  Morgana, wait 'til you run up against Ovid's "Remedies for Love."  You'll laugh 'til you cry.
22:54 Torrey Philemon: I'm not remembering the Ajax/Ulysses argument now (have been drinking whisky as we chat! <-: ) Do post your comments on our Ovid board, Epistate! ...Meanwhile we need to set a date for Ars Amatorio and my time is very tight right now and i'm out of town the first 10 days of December. Morgana, should we do late November or mid December?
22:54 Morgana Flavius: Protecting Ovid would be my guess... it seems that after they broke up, Ovid did not care about Corinna at all... and the only instance I could not agree with Green is when he says that Ovid could have had a more affectionate relationship with his third wife. Apparently, all he did was to use her connections in Rome to try to get released from his painful relegatio in Tomis.
22:54 Torrey Philemon: And Epistate, I'm  THRILLED you joined us. Have really missed conversing with you....I'm just not at A.S. much anymore....usually only for our chats here and at FB.
22:55 Torrey Philemon: Should we do Remedies of Love with Ars Amatorio? Isn't it very short?
22:56 Morgana Flavius: Hum... mid December would be better for me.
22:56 Epistate Philemon: Ovid did need protection.  He was in deep manure!  Torrey, I'm not a MythQuest member.  But if I have a comment maybe I'll pass it along to a member who can post it.
22:56 Torrey Philemon: The last weekend in November is Thanksgiving weekend......but I'm out of town the next two weekends.....then we get close to Christmas.......
22:57 Morgana Flavius: I'm also trying to cut my time in AS. I just got an additional job that is eating up my time now... And yes, Epistate! I'm really glad you joined us too!!!
22:57 Epistate Philemon: I've missed you, too, Torrey, and I haven't been around much either.  Just lately I've been picking up again.  And yes, Remedies is pretty short (and he repeats himself quite a bit) so I'd recommend it as part of Ars Amatoria.
22:58 Torrey Philemon: Epistate, do send any comments through one of us, to post.......And in regard to our next chat, the weekend of December 11th (I'll be flying back Saturday; it's tight, but I can read while I'm in Florida) or the 18th.......
22:59 Torrey Philemon: Epistate, can you do either the 11th or 18th weekend in December? I imagine you hit end of term, papers, exams etc. around that time.
22:59 Morgana Flavius: And I think I can add Remedies to Ars Amatoria by mid December. It seems to be short, yes. Hum... Xtmas time already! Oh my!!!
22:59 Epistate Philemon: It's funny--spending time at AS seems to come in waves, like the tides only less predictably!  Occasionally we wind up being flotsam and jetsam at the same time, but sometimes we won't see somebody for months and then suddenly we see 'em all the time.  Since the geographical component isn't there, it behaves rather strangely for a community.
23:01 Torrey Philemon: I think many people's commitment to A.S. has been deteriorating due not only to real life concerns but also A.S.'s downtime. And they just emailed out a message saying they're going to be down a lot in the next few weeks as they upgrade. ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ALREADY!
23:01 Epistate Philemon:   I've got finals on Dec. 15 and 17, and will be leaving the state on the 18th, but I'll also be gone on the weekend of the 11th, so actually neither of those would work very well...
23:02 Torrey Philemon: Hmm, Epistate, what would work well in December? My evenings do get better then......I could possibly do Wednesday or Thursday at least......
23:02 Epistate Philemon: I agree--the downtime is really a problem.  One of my colleagues was using AS in conjunction with a classroom (something they were really encouraging people to do).  She has sworn "NEVER AGAIN!"  Her students couldn't get any of their homework done.
23:02 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Torrey, I have the same feelings about AS.
23:03 Epistate Philemon: Wednesdays I teach an evening class, but Thursdays aren't bad.
23:04 Torrey Philemon: Thursday December 16?
23:04 Morgana Flavius: I've also heard that some Patrons are demanding their money back... really sad... Anytime after December 15 should work for me. Except Xmas eve... *g*
23:05 Epistate Philemon: Before finals is better.  They're busy studying--I'm just twiddling my thumbs and waiting for the papers to come in.  Dec. 9 would probably be best for me.
23:05 Torrey Philemon: I know that my patronship should have expired October 2nd but I haven't heard a word.........
23:05 Morgana Flavius: Thursday, Dec. 16 is fine for me.
23:05 Epistate Philemon: But December 16 might not be bad either.  I'd be grading--might need a break by that time.
23:05 Torrey Philemon: Unfortunately I'm out of town with no computer access December 2-11.......
23:06 Torrey Philemon: Ok, I'm going to authoritatively declare Dec 16 our next meeting! Even if you can only make part of it, we'd be delighted to have you, Epistate!
23:06 Epistate Philemon: December 16 sounds best then.
23:07 Torrey Philemon: Ok folks? This has been fun!
23:08 Morgana Flavius: Ok, December 16. Deal!
23:08 Epistate Philemon: Torrey, you haven't got many web pages stored here, have you?  If they suddenly decide to cut off your patronage, they'll cut your web space indiscriminately.  Happened to me as soon as Kritias took over as City Editor.
23:08 Morgana Flavius: Yeah!! Really great!!!
23:09 Torrey Philemon: Hmm.....I have over 300 web pages here, Epistate, but I haven't received any notice about my patronage ending. Ijust figured they continued it longer because of some of the outages. What's the story?
23:09 Epistate Philemon: Mind you, they don't cut all of it--just cut you down to the number of MB you're supposed to have (in my case, my patronage was still good, but at that time I only had a bronze plaque so I got whacked to 5 MB...and I had 7 stored on my pages).
23:09 Torrey Philemon: Do they let you know when your year patronage has expired or are you expected to figure that out?
23:10 Morgana Flavius: Well, good night Torrey and Epistate! And I guess we might just have lost Nimue to the mosquitoes! But I miss her comments, she always has interesting inputs to offer!
23:10 Epistate Philemon: No, you do NOT receive orders.  Remember when Claudilla Caecilius forgot that she was paying on the quarterly program?
23:11 Epistate Philemon: 'Night, Morgana!  'Night, Nimue, if you're still hovering there somewhere!
23:11 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, it's so wonderful as always to dialogue with you......and I'm sorry that Myrrhine didn't show up; she intended to........I'll announce December 16 on the board....... Thanks again to both of you. (Epistate, I guess I ought to inquire to A.S. to look into that patronage issue rather than wake up one morning and find my web pages gone! Thanks for telling me!)
23:13 Morgana Flavius: (My patronage was "patronized" by someone else before the expiring date. But I never got any notice on it or a request to renew it like magazine subscritptions bug you weeks/months before expiration date.)
23:13 Epistate Philemon: Thank you, Torrey, for your hospitality.  And I'd suggest you shoot AS a check for renewal.  They might well have extended it on account of the outages, but one can't predict for how long.
23:14 Torrey Philemon: Good suggestion, Epistate. Good night to both of you!
23:14 Epistate Philemon: Take care, you two!  Goodnight!
23:14 Epistate Philemon exits...
23:15 Torrey Philemon exits...
23:15 Morgana Flavius: Good night ladies, now I'm really going. And I assume it's gonna be Dec. 16 at the 8pm time, right? I'll watch for your post on the board, Torrey! bye!
23:16 Morgana Flavius exits...

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