Ovid Metamorphoses Chat 1b
Chat Transcript
401lines of discussion for
Jan. 20, 1999


continued from page one of first chat

22:05 Morgana Flavius: The Romans taught youths in the schools to find the most suitable examples to illustrate the points they sought to make in their speeches. This skill was known in Latin as "inventio." Unlike our word "invention," "inventio" means "discovery," in the sense of finding from existing material the best examples. Ovid must have excelled in this skill as a schoolboy; he certainly used it with masterful art in his Metamorphoses. (Quoting from material read in the net). Comments?
22:05 Torrey Philemon:  I'm going to try to take a little bit of control here...Let's get back to the myths themselves. One question is what are the different crimes, sins, etc for which people are punished....being raped by Zeus is one, but also: seeing a god exposed or vulnerable, seeing a god in all his power, reaching beyond mortal limits....(i think we lost nimue). Does this subject interest you all enough to talk about it? Crimes punishable by the gods....
22:06 flavius Horatius: Ovid probably thought that with the writing of the Fasti and of the Metamorphoses that he would be accepted as having written a poetic parallel to Livy's history and was offended, in my opinion, that his creations were not accorded the public acclaim that was earned by Livy, Varro, Horace and even Propertius [who was certainly far more guilty of having a prurient interest!]
22:06 Torrey Philemon: We can refer to each "crime" and mention the myths that pertain to it. Or another subject, raised by a few of us, is the meaning of METAMORPHOSIS, on a variety of levels...these transformations into ANIMALS in particular.
22:07 Lusinda Lupus: Torrey, sins it is.  Here is one that takes a whole generation to expiate:  Cadmus kills the serpent.
22:07 Phya Artistides: Well, birds that were reporting bad information (that displeased the god's) were turned from white to black...even though their intentions were good.
22:07 Morgana Flavius: Sorry, Torrey. Sometimes I post a comment right before seeing one of your suggestions. It doesn't mean I don't care! I really would like to talk about crime and punishment.
22:08 flavius Horatius: I think instead of dissecting individual transformations or deities or animals or plants as found in the Metamorphoses, it would be far more productive to see what the cumulative and culminating point of the various transformations are:  what is Ovid's end goal, the final transformation, the most important metamorphosis?
22:08 Torrey Philemon: Hmm. We seem to all be monologuing. I'm just groping to find a way to bring us together around a common topic. Is crime and punishment of interest of more of you (just saw your comment, Morgana. The time delay makes the conversation even more schizophrenic)
22:09 Morgana Flavius: Yes, and another crime that was punished was the one of mocking a god's ritual. (Case of Pentheus).
22:09 Lusinda Lupus: Eventually Cadmus and his wife become serpents.
22:10 Morgana Flavius: flavius, your suggestion is a MUST at the end of this chat!
22:10 Torrey Philemon: Cadmus kills the serpent, birds that are telltales are say what they souldn't say.... (flavius, maybe it would help keep us more grounded to start with specific examples before we jump to generalities again and speculate on abstract goals...?)
22:10 Phya Artistides: The transformations that I don't understand are the ones out of grief, in the case of phaeton's sisters and cousin. Was this punnishment?
22:10 flavius Horatius: A simple rule for a productive chat is to have a well defined thesis topic: one that has been publicly posted in advance and one which clearly delineates the discussion parameters.
22:11 Morgana Flavius: The problem is that I read only books I, II and III... I don't feel capable of making a wrapping up comment about the whole Metamorphoses at this point...
22:11 Torrey Philemon: Phya, you're referring to Phaethon's grieving relatives being turned into plants....Is there a purpose in that?
22:11 Phya Artistides: *agrees with Morgana*
22:12 flavius Horatius: And with Ovid, we have to remember, that he was tilling ground that was alread well turned by many other authors: he was dealing with familiar stories and not attempting to significantly change any of them: he was trying to posit a connectivity between many stories.
22:12 Torrey Philemon: Maybe we want to stay closer to the text initially, and move later into more abstract speculations on the book as a whole....
22:12 Phya Artistides: Well, whywere they. The sisters didn't seem to want to be turned into plants. i was wondering if it was some sort of punishment...but what would be punnishable?
22:13 Lusinda Lupus: OK, Torrey, but do we look at the myths for their psychological content.
22:13 Aurora Inca enters...
22:13 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Phya. I noticed that too. Phaeton did an awful thing and his punishment is only to grieve on his sisters misfortunes...
22:13 Torrey Philemon: Well as I suggested in our first ten minutes, we'd take turns, each posing a topic. We started with the topic of Zeus as rapist and discussed it for about 45 minutes, then went off in a variety of directions. So perhaps our second topic for tonight is crime and punishment.
22:13 flavius Horatius: Ovid wants to dazzle us with his ability to merge so many diverse stories into a homogenous whole: to present these varied and various stories as though they did have a common source and style and as a result he leaves a sense of style over substance: a desire to elicit a smirk of admiration as opposed to a heartfelt sense of revelation into the human spirit.
22:15 Torrey Philemon: Lusinda, I think we can look at the myths from a number of levels, even though it does unfocus us a bit.  Literary, political, psychological. The question is can we maintain that multiple perspective.
22:15 Morgana Flavius: flavius, are you saying that there was not a purpose as to the myths he chose? He was only showing his abilities to stich them together in a nice patchwork?
22:16 Torrey Philemon: So taking the transformation of the grieving sisters/cousins into plants, a question here is if this is even a punishment? Or is  it a blessing? Or neither? What meaning does it have?
22:17 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, I was expecting some answers from YOU, as you chose to focus on Phaeton's story... :-)
22:17 Torrey Philemon: I don't know about the rest of you, but I do experience in a heartfelt way the substance. There are some passages that reach deep into the core of my feelings and experience. I don't sense any coherent whole, but I do sense that the Ovid portrayed SOME but not ALL of the original myths meaningfully....
22:18 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Morgana, I did study Phaethon's story but didn't address that particular question. Much of the material I found about Phaethon focused on how the story reflects times of cosmic devasation around 1150 B.C. reflected in most cultures of the world...and how after Christ, Phaethon was equated with Lucifer....
22:20 Lusinda Lupus: I suggest that a sin is a transgression against a god:  i.e. pride, or presumption of equality, or accidental assault.  Phaeton in this case sins for having presumed to be able to step into his father's place.
22:20 Torrey Philemon: We see a lot of warnings in myth and in the Bible about daring to trespass on the realms of the God, of reaching too high, and beling leveled as a result (right, Lusinda)
22:21 Phya Artistides: All the other transformations are willed ('help me get out of this') or punishment.
22:21 Morgana Flavius: *agree with Lusinda too*
22:21 Phya Artistides enters...
22:22 Torrey Philemon: On a personal note, relating to the theme of insight for us today, I find the Phaethon myth relevant to those of us who spent too much time soaring in cyberspace, then "crash" back to the chaos of our physical realities, that are coming undone as a result of our lack of balance and discipline....
22:22 Morgana Flavius: And adding to that, let's not forget that Greek/Roman religious piety consisted mostly on performing the rites of the gods, with no concerns about individual behavior.
22:23 Torrey Philemon: So one thing that's becoming clear here is that not all transformations into animals etc are punishment....although a lot or perhaps most are....
22:24 Lusinda Lupus: But he is not the only one to sin:  Clymene sins by letting anger and pride guide her to send her son to Pheobus - a kind of presumption.  I am interested in sins that are compounded from parent to child, and result in others' suffering, as in this case Phaeton's sisters.
22:24 Morgana Flavius: You see riding in cyberspace like a ride on the chariot of the sun, Torrey?
22:26 Morgana Flavius: As someone pointed out here, some people chose to be metamorphosed just to get rid of an unbearable threat (Ex. Apollo & Dafne)
22:27 Torrey Philemon: (phya got disconnected and is trying to get back in).....When or if we get out of balance in our life as a result of spending too much time soaring in cyberspace, Morgana, I think it can be a bit like Phaethon's ride! One can not fully escape here from what we're neglecting on earth. They tend to appear in cyberspace as well and send us crashing back to reality.
22:27 Phya Artistides enters...
22:27 Phya Artistides: I back. Finally!
22:27 Torrey Philemon: Right, Morgana. A metamorphoses can be a saving grace, as in Daphne. Come to think of it, that's another exmple of a metamorphoses into a plant as an escape from pain or violation, as Phaethon's sisters. Plant transformations do not appear to be punishment.
22:27 Morgana Flavius: Hum... I'll have to think about that Torrey...
22:28 Lusinda Lupus: Sorry to have to exit - I will check in again in 1/2 hour to see where you are.
22:29 Torrey Philemon: Welcome back, Phya (I hope we haven't lost Flavius too, as a result of not wanting to head into the book as a whole quite yet)
22:29 Morgana Flavius: Another comment about crime and punishment: is it only a biased perception, or men get punished by seeing their children or other relatives suffering, while women get punished more directly?
22:30 Torrey Philemon: So some transformations are punishments - punishments to victims, punishments to violators and trespassers; some are means of rescue....
22:30 Torrey Philemon: That would be interesting, Morgana, to compare the punishments of men to the punishments of women....
22:31 Morgana Flavius: I does seem more quiet here... I guess flavius left us. But I must say that I like his comments, always keeping in mind the whole context. :-)
22:31 Torrey Philemon: (hope you can return, Lusinda....transcript will be here)
22:31 Torrey Philemon: (Aurora, have you lost contact with us? Are you here?)
22:32 Aurora Inca: I'm here, and things seem to be getting better. The words are staying long enough for me to read most of them now!
22:33 Morgana Flavius: The only exception I can see -- up to book III -- is Europa. Her punishment (if there is really one) was probably even not felt during her lifetime... there seems to be a disagreement as to Acteon being Cadmus'  son or grandson...
22:33 Aurora Inca: (it's been hard trying to keep up when everything disappears when I've only read half! )
22:34 Torrey Philemon: (Aurora, you might want to click on the left on change your 20 second refresh rate and make it about 45 seconds)
22:34 Morgana Flavius: And also... I felt quite disappointed to see Europa's story told in such a brief way! I didn't know Ovid made so brief till I read it by the end of book II!
22:35 Torrey Philemon: One thing nobody's mentioned is how strong the sense of family ties are in regard to identity. A sin of a family member affects everyone else in the family. Part of one's identity, burdens, and gifts is one's family...much moreso than today (at least in the western world)....
22:35 Phya Artistides: I was wonderting if there was even more to it in chapter 4 or 5...but i don't think there is
22:36 Torrey Philemon: Yes, the Europa story is brief...but some stories, such as Pentheus are very long....I wonder what influenced Ovid's choice in regard to how much he wrote about each story.
22:37 Torrey Philemon: What meaning do you see in so many of the transformations being transformations into ANIMALS?
22:37 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Phya, another interesting thing about Ovid is that sometimes he resumes on a story several books after he has started it. Maybe he will mention Europa later on... I'll have to read on!
22:38 Aurora Inca: What I found most interesting about the animal transformations were that they kept their human minds. The images of them thinking but not able to communicate was pitiful!
22:38 Torrey Philemon: It is odd where his chapters end too. A chapter ends in the middle of a story, which then continues in the next chapter.
22:38 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Torrey... and bulls and cows/heifers are the winners in the score so far... :-)
22:38 Aurora Inca: (Thanks Torrey, the much longer refresh rate worked-----I can see!)
22:38 Torrey Philemon: Was it Io who communicated by writing in the sand? Very resourceful.
22:39 Phya Artistides: The animal thing is interesting, because animals wouuld be seen as a digression of the chain of being (was that Aristotal?)
22:39 Phya Artistides: plants even more so....
22:39 Aurora Inca: Yes, at least she didn't have a long name to write! *L*
22:39 Torrey Philemon: bulls, cows, heifers, mares, fish.....plants....
22:40 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Torrey. So, I guess the myths were there, Ovid could not change them... so he chose to emphasize some, to cut others... I wonder why...
22:40 Morgana Flavius: LOL Aurora!
22:40 Torrey Philemon: Hmm, Phya. Digression in the chain of being. Regression also in the psyche. Very interesting. I suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and know very well that experiences of intense trauma and violation can lead to regression. Very interesting.
22:41 Torrey Philemon: Yes, LOL Aurora!
22:41 Torrey Philemon: Maybe what she was writing was IO for I Object!
22:41 Phya Artistides: My screen is doing the Aurora blank thing now
22:42 Torrey Philemon: Phya - two choices. Change your refresh rate on the left, or exit and come back.
22:42 Morgana Flavius: I think that the transformations are into plants and animals (and not furniture, or stones) because the punished person had to remain alive to suffer...
22:42 Aurora Inca: I hadn't thought of that, but after a violation, one response can be to retreat, not communicate.
22:43 Torrey Philemon: Someone was changed into a statue. Do you remember who?
22:44 Morgana Flavius: But Aglaurus was transformed into a statue... apparently she "died" when that happened... there's a dramatic description of her getting cold... up to her heart during the transformation....
22:44 Aurora Inca: and there IS the feeling that nobody understands....kind of the same as being unable to talk with others.
22:44 Torrey Philemon: Also being an animal. Attending mostly to one's physical needs, on a survival level. Not very able to think. Operating at a lower level of consciousness and capability.
22:45 Torrey Philemon: Right, Aglaurus. That was the most confusing part of Ovid for me. The bird stories also. Very hard to tell what was going on here, and who was telling the story.
22:45 Phya Artistides: I was thinking that, Aurora, before, that isolation and blame is something suffered by rape victims in modern times
22:45 Torrey Philemon: Right, Aurora. The isolation that results, being pent up in one's own suffering, not able to connect...
22:45 Morgana Flavius: Right Aurora.
22:45 Phya Artistides: how does one change the refreash rate?
22:46 Aurora Inca: That's the feeling I got from Io, nobody understands, and I can't make them understand. I really felt for her.
22:46 Torrey Philemon: (Phya, look to bottom left of screen, click on change your 20 second refresh rate)
22:47 Phya Artistides: The sister of herse, who was poisoned by Envy changed into black stone. The description of how Envy 'worked' was my favorite section that we read. i thought it very apropriate
22:47 Morgana Flavius: Sorry to keep hitting on the same key... but again, in the story of Europa, the transformation into an animal is desired... and is motivated by love alone... Ovid doesn't tell (too short his Europa & Jove version), but when Jove & Europa arrived in Crete, he came back to his human form and only then they made love. (Different from the Pasiphae story...)
22:48 Torrey Philemon: Aurora really felt for Io. Here's a question for all of you...Which myth most spoke to you personally and why (yes, Phya, that Envy section was really brilliantly done, wasn't it! Marvelous description of how envy can eat up the psyche)
22:49 Morgana Flavius: Phya, sometimes the link "refresh rate" is hidden at the bottom of the screen. You may have to scroll your left frame.
22:50 Torrey Philemon: Say more, Morgana, the difference between Europa and Pasiphae story.
22:51 Phya Artistides: i think ovid mentions that he changes  to human form, but not that they make love.
22:51 Morgana Flavius: Pasiphae had sexual intercourse with a bull...
22:51 Phya Artistides: I felt most sorry for Echo. I think sometimes rejection has made me feel that way.
22:51 Morgana Flavius: My favorite myth -- so far -- was the story of Deucalion and Pyrra... that scene of them throwing back the stones really spoke to my heart.
22:53 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Echo truly lost her voice.....her sense of self. All she could was mirror others, she was invalidated in her own right.
22:53 Morgana Flavius: Oh, yes, you're right Phya. Ovid stops exactly when Jove is resuming his "glowing god features".
22:53 Phya Artistides: I think what struck me most was the eliment of faith in the D and P myth...it was similar to the judeo/christian God in that they had to do something that defies their own wisdom in order to be rewarded
22:54 Torrey Philemon: Phya, what would you say that D&P did that defied their own wisdom?
22:54 Morgana Flavius: Judith Hamilton describes what happens next. And she based her story on a certain Moschus (never heard about him), a poet of the III century AD.
22:57 Phya Artistides: They mention that 'neither of the had any confidence in heaven's counsel' but they did it anyway
22:57 Torrey Philemon: (BTW, I wrote an article once on the Daphne and Apollo story, which means the most to me and has been a theme in my dreams. I will write about it in future...am looking for my article and notes!)
22:58 Torrey Philemon: Interesting, Phya. They followed the guidance of the gods, even without must trust...
22:59 Morgana Flavius: Phya: they did it only when they thought it was safe... at least Pyrra was not willing to do anything against her own common sense (like violating her mother's tomb).
22:59 Torrey Philemon: (On a more mundane level, feels like my compulsive filling out of the Publishers Clearinghouse sweepstakes every week, not really trusting it's going to lead to any windfall  <-: )
23:00 Morgana Flavius: ...and she stated that very firmly. I mean... throwing stones could not harm anybody... could it?
23:00 Torrey Philemon: BTW there's a marvelous play on the the story of Genesis going around the theater circuit in the U.S. now, after having been in Europe. It's called Children of Eden, and is marvelous. The first half is Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel and the second half is the Flood story. Interesting parallels here, these flood stories....
23:01 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, what is it about throwing the stones of mother earth that most spoke to you?
23:01 Morgana Flavius: I saw in that myth -- or particularly in that part of the D&P myth -- the evidence of a change from feminine to masculine way of thinking in the world... Goodbye, Gaia, welcome Gaius sort of thing.
23:01 Phya Artistides: In Christianity, faith always seems to go against common sense, and what is safe...i found it cool that the elements of faith were similar in these myths
23:02 Torrey Philemon: Throwing behind the mother, the FEMININE....as the world becomes more patriarchal.
23:03 Phya Artistides: 'Goodbye Gaia, welcome Gaius' sounds like a good title for a play!
23:04 Torrey Philemon: Yes it does! But even better: Goodbye Gauis, welcome again Gaia!
23:05 Morgana Flavius: And again... the D&P myth doesn't imply any punishment as a consequence of transformation. It means an implicit "approval" by the gods...
23:05 Phya Artistides: Torrey, that could be the sequel *s*
23:06 Torrey Philemon: Yes, not all the myths are transformation or punishment, but many are.
23:07 Phya Artistides: Did you guys read my post about the possibility of flood myths simplifing geneologies, and enforcing ethnocentric ideals?
23:07 Morgana Flavius: I hope Gaia can still be here when human race as a whole will welcome her again!
23:08 Torrey Philemon: Did you just post that Phya? If so, didn't see it....can you explain further?
23:08 Phya Artistides: Well, i have to go...I promised my housemate the phone after 11.  I'll drop in after she's done to see if you guys are still here
23:08 Aurora Inca: Yes, that they do. But don't also creation stories?
23:08 Morgana Flavius: I read that Phya. I agree with that. The creation myths that usually precede the flood myths get pretty hectic and need some "clean". Nothing like a good flood to achieve that, heh? (LOL)
23:09 Torrey Philemon: Phya, hold on 2 minutes ok....Let's just plan about next chat real quickly.
23:09 Torrey Philemon: This is what I suggest. That we meet every week and just add one book a week or meet every two weeks and two books every two weeks. Trouble is I work most nights till 10pm so evening are tough for me. Can only do Thursday next week.
23:09 Morgana Flavius: BTW, who's still with us? I see Phya (who's leaving), Torrey and Aurora. Anyone else?
23:09 Phya Artistides: Oh, that different cultures saying there was a flood, and that members of their culture were the only people to survive it, they could trace all man kind to their race (ethnocentric) and it also makes it easier to trace geneologies (look how important the 'begots' are in the Bible...knowing roots is an important part of myth).  I'm holding!
23:10 Aurora Inca: I just wonder why in many cultures the creation itself wasn't OK as it was.......why the need to re-do things?
23:10 Phya Artistides: Thursday is good for me!
23:10 Torrey Philemon: (Lusinda said she'd be coming back)
23:11 Torrey Philemon: Want to continue next Thursday 9pm and just add book 4 to our repertoire?
23:11 Morgana Flavius: Thursday is good. Actually, any day, if we keep the 9pm time.
23:12 Phya Artistides: maybe as a warning to future generations to behave? My prof belives that this genre of myth could have resulted from many small floods, and the stories explain how the people survive. Who knows
23:12 Morgana Flavius: One book per week is the fastest I can go.
23:12 Torrey Philemon: Ok....unless there are major objections, we'll continue next Thursday 9pm...don't have to end quite yet though. I agree Morgana. One book a week maximum.
23:12 Aurora Inca: Sounds good, Torrey. Looks like we don't want to go in big chunks - too much to digest.
23:12 Phya Artistides: I'll let the people on my class Bulletin e-mail know.  A bunch said they'd come today...maybe my directions were confusing
23:13 Phya Artistides: see you guys next Thursday (my housemate just called down to me...yikes)
23:13 Torrey Philemon: (Phya, non-A.S. members can't get into a chat room here. They have to join first.)
23:14 Morgana Flavius: I didn't realize that Metamorphoses encompasses SO MANY myths! It is incredibly rich!
23:14 Torrey Philemon: great Phya. see you on the bulletin board before then.....
23:15 Morgana Flavius: Bye Phya, it was great to have you here!
23:15 Torrey Philemon: On the Phaethon page I put up, there's a link to an article about Phaethon and comets. But it's all about myths of catastrophes in many cultures related to the scorching of the earth, earthquakes, floods....Apparently many cultures had a difficult period around 1150 B.C. Know anything about that archaeologically, Aurora?
23:17 Morgana Flavius: Let me just mention one thing about the 9pm time. It is good for me and for most people in the Americas, but none of our friends in Europe can make it. Olodum Flaminius would like to participate, but not at this time! 9pm is 3 am for him. I am not saying that we need to change because of him, but if more people from Europe get interested, we will have to think about that.
23:17 Aurora Inca: No, Torrey, but I found the article interesting. Since I mainly have done North American arch. (no written records) I don't really know much about it.
23:18 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, maybe we can do a weekend time, if it doesn't conflict with other meetings like Fab Bib. We could do a a Saturday or Sunday in the future. But let's let the Europeans know that they can read the transcript and respond on the forum borad.
23:18 Torrey Philemon: ...the forum board...
23:19 Morgana Flavius: 1150 BC... Egypt was at its hieghts with Ramses... Troy was shining as a fine city too... no records of catastrophes on that side...
23:20 Morgana Flavius: Fine, Torrey. Maybe they are not interested at all... it was just a thought that occurred to me...
23:22 Torrey Philemon: I'd say if people start posting on our board and show genuine interest and that they're reading the material, then we can all do our best to set up a time to accommodate them....But they have to earn our accommodation by showing their involvement first  GRIN!
23:22 Aurora Inca: I have to go chase my child back into bed. Good night everyone!
23:22 Torrey Philemon: Good night Aurora....I guess we're ending! Only Morgana and I left....
23:23 Morgana Flavius: Anyhow, I must say that I found this a wonderful oportunity to revive my "mythlogical asset" and refresh my memory about all the myths I learned to love since I was a child. I am really enjoying reading Ovid's Metamorphoses and having an oportunity to discuss it is even greater!
23:23 Torrey Philemon: One thing I really like is hearing your personal perspective. What speaks to everyone individually....and the psychological insight we gain today reading themyths.
23:23 Morgana Flavius: I agree 100% with you on that, Torrey!
23:23 Torrey Philemon: I agree Morgana. It's a wonderful book, isn't it? What translation are you reading? Mandelbaum's is beautiful.
23:24 Morgana Flavius: Yes, goodbye Aurora!
23:24 Aurora Inca: Spoken like an Olympian deity, Torrey! Very good!
23:24 Torrey Philemon: Another thing I'd like to do...is for each of us to post our favorite passage in the translation we have. Then we can compare translations. There are three more passages I want to post. The envy one is one of them....
23:25 Aurora Inca exits...
23:25 Torrey Philemon: Glad you came, Aurora and stuck with it despite tech problems...
23:25 Morgana Flavius: I am reading Garth's, which I downloaded from one of the links you posted. It is a bit difficult, specially because English is not my native language... but I am enjoying it anyway!
23:26 Torrey Philemon: Do you have a translation available in Portuguese, Morgana?
23:26 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I like to compare translations too.
23:26 Torrey Philemon: Oh another translation you can get online is the one through the Perseus link. It's MORE, whoever that is....If you can ever afford Mandelbaum, it's sheer poetry at times.
23:27 Torrey Philemon: Or does your library have it?
23:27 Morgana Flavius: Yes, there are Portuguse translations, but I have already completed my financial budget for books for the next two months!
23:28 Torrey Philemon: Understood about book budgets! I think I've spent my way into the year 2000 at Amazon.com and Abebooks for out of print books.
23:28 Morgana Flavius: Public libraries don't let you check out books here... and I can't go there when I want to read...
23:28 Torrey Philemon: Oh how terrible. You can't check out books from libraries.....
23:29 Morgana Flavius: If you are a student, you can checkout books... but that's not my case anymore... :o)

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