Ovid Metamorphoses BOOK EIGHT Chat Transcript 6  228 lines  April 2, 1999

 

19:49 Torrey Philemon enters... 19:50 Torrey Philemon: Hey folks. Metamorphoses chat on book 8 starting at 8pm est....I'm off reading the last five pages....just did post two messages on our Ovid message board, which you can read at http://www.ancientsites.com/xi/interface/bb/readTopic.rage?BB=/xi_data/Rome/groups/MythQuest/bb/main&TT=23 19:51 Torrey Philemon: Please start chatting if you arrive before I return.... 20:00 Morgana Flavius enters... 20:00 Morgana Flavius: Hello! 20:02 Dionysos Philemon enters... 20:03 Morgana Flavius: Welcome Dionysos! 20:04 Myrrhine Philemon enters... 20:04 Torrey Philemon: Hello Morgana, and welcome Dionysius. How wonderful that you are joining us.... 20:04 Myrrhine Philemon: hello 20:04 Morgana Flavius: Hi Myrrhine! 20:05 Torrey Philemon: Four of us here already! What a wonderful begining....Why don't we start by each of us mentioning one topic we' d like to discuss....then decide what to do from there.... 20:05 Myrrhine Philemon: It's almost a Philemon reunion in here today! 20:06 Morgana Flavius: I'm still reading Torrey's post (in another window). 20:07 Dionysos Philemon: Hello,from a neophyte. 20:07 Myrrhine Philemon: I regret to say that again I haven't been able to put the time I would have liked into preparation 20:07 Torrey Philemon: I just finished book 8 five minutes ago myself....(Here here for the Philemon, including Baucis and Philemon!) 20:09 Myrrhine Philemon: I am still reading Erysichton ... but I did notice that the stories in Book 8 deal with a gods who feel they have been overlooked in some way 20:09 Torrey Philemon: Dionysos, do you want to introduce yourself since you're just joining us?  20:09 Dionysos Philemon: My pick would be Minos,Ariadne, Theseus 20:09 Morgana Flavius: I finished Herakles story a few hours ago. 20:11 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Myrrhine... I have a feeling that from Medea's story on, Ovid seems to have shifted to myths where the gods are not so powerful... 20:11 Morgana Flavius: Do tell us a bit about you, Dionysos... and I like the theme of Ariadne, Theseus and Minoss too! 20:12 Torrey Philemon: I'm interested in that theme too....of how the gods respond when they are overlooked or ignored or challenged by a mortal......am feeling really tuned into its psychological meaning too, in regard to what happens when we neglect powerful energies within us, and how they then may "have their revenge" by breaking through and taking over.... 20:14 Dionysos Philemon: I have always been interested in myth, particularly from a Jungian perspective. So much can be learned from them and it seems to expand life in a sense 20:14 Myrrhine Philemon: I look forward to hearing from you on that point Torrey ... 20:15 Morgana Flavius: Yes, but in Ariadne and Theseus, gods do not play a big part... they're actually only on the "supporting roles"... 20:17 Morgana Flavius: Please, tell us about the Jungian perspective in a myth like Theseus and Ariadne, Dionysos. 20:17 Torrey Philemon: Ovid sure doesn't help us really enter Ariadne's experience....he tells the story so sketchily, as he does in part the Medea story. I wonder if he was distracted by a new love affair.... 20:18 Dionysos Philemon: Another view might be that the Gods are acting in all the characters in a very real sense. This is how we can relate 20:18 Myrrhine Philemon: I think he told the story in Ars and perhaps didn't feel the need to tell it again?  I haven't read it so I'm not sure 20:18 Torrey Philemon: But he really does let us into the emotional experience of Althea (torn between loyalties) and of Famine..... 20:19 Aldicius Amaru enters... 20:19 Morgana Flavius: I must confess that tonight I am totally involved with Ariadne... I have just seen again (from a tape) the opera "Ariadne auf Naxos", by Richard Strauss... Hoffmansthal is the author of the libreto. And he elaborates more on the part when Ariadne meets Dionysos (the god, not you, Dionysos Philemon!) *smile* 20:19 Myrrhine Philemon: Hello Aldicius 20:19 Aldicius Amaru: Hello, all. 20:20 Morgana Flavius: Welcome, Aldicius! 20:21 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Torrey. Maybe Ovid had said enough in the Heroides, with that letter from Ariadne to Theseus. 20:21 Torrey Philemon: Hello Aldicius....For some reason, I have trouble relating to the Ariadne story. I guess it's hard for me to understand the connection between the Theseus part of her life and the Dionysius part of her life....Say more, Morgana, about what you know about Ariadne.  20:21 Aldicius Amaru enters... 20:22 Aldicius Amaru: I seem to be having screen trouble again. 20:23 Morgana Flavius: I don't know much about Ariadne... but she's someone who gets away pretty nicely after betraying her father (and country), and being abandoned by her lover... A rare case in what we have been reading in Ovid so far... 20:24 Aldicius Amaru enters... 20:24 Morgana Flavius: I don't know from where the opera gets the background, but there Ariadne is portrayed as a woman who wants to die after being left alone in Naxos... and when Dionysos comes, she thinks he is the god who is taking her to the land of dead. 20:25 Morgana Flavius: And Dionysos tells her that the last think he wants is to have her die in his arms. He says he wants her alive and beautiful. 20:25 Torrey Philemon: I'm not an expert on Dionysius and Dionysian rites, but it's not my impression that Ariadne's experience with Dionysius is all bliss. There is a lot of madness, ripping apart, bloodshed etc in regard to this part of her life, is there not? The place where love, violence and madness intertwine.... 20:26 Torrey Philemon: Or perhaps all this Dionysian/Bacchic madness etc. comes later.... 20:26 Morgana Flavius: ...and for Ariadne it is as if she had died and then started a new life... with the god. 20:27 Morgana Flavius: apparently Ariadne does not stay long with Dionysos... he transforms her into a crown in the sky. 20:28 Morgana Flavius: Dionysos rites are also mistery rites... apparently these rites also deal with rennovation after "death"... like Persephone and Ceres... 20:29 Torrey Philemon: Interesting. I think I can't relate to the Ariadne story actually because it strikes too close to home and I don't want to relate to it. I recall a painful loss/breakup/betrayal when I was in my 20s, and how I was completely abandoned, and took refuge in a very indulgent relationship with a man who could only be called the epitome of Dionysius. Madly devoted, intoxicated, half crazy, part angel, part devil. Totally indulgent relationship yet  a sanctuary of healing......Perhaps this is Ariadne's experience with Dionysius.  20:29 Dionysos Philemon: As I understand it,Ariadne's marriage to Dionysos was one of the only marrieages that stuck among their cicle of friends. Possibly because  they were both somewhat androgenous 20:29 Morgana Flavius: Where is our Dionysos Philemon? And Myrrhine? And Alidius? Are you guys here? 20:30 Myrrhine Philemon: I'm here ... just taking in the coversation :) 20:30 Torrey Philemon: Anyone know what the best sources of information are for Ariadne's encounter with Dionysius? The beginning stages of it.....How he found her..... 20:30 Morgana Flavius: I know about Dionysos being a bit androgenous, but Ariadne too? Why? 20:31 Dionysos Philemon: I'm here too - just misspelling words 20:32 Myrrhine Philemon: According to the notes to my text - Ovid tells the story og Ariadne's desertion and rescue in Ars Amatoria  20:32 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, my source is that opera, but there Dionysos is sailing after having met Circe in her island and escaped her spell. He stops in Naxos and there he finds Ariadne. 20:33 Torrey Philemon: It's a mixed blessing when we read later interpretations of myth (like an opera) because they color our view of the story (I read the Theseus' stories from the point of view of Mary Renault). We have to struggle to differentiate the original myth from the later interpretations.... 20:33 Dionysos Philemon: I believe she goes back to the Great Mother and the completeness that is involved there. Androgenous in that sense 20:33 Morgana Flavius: Aha! Yes, I thought that Ovid did not elaborate much on Ariadne because he had done so somewhere else. It is a fabulous myth! 20:34 Torrey Philemon: Myrrhine, we're just all going to have to read Ars Amatoria next, and the Heroides. We'll be here reading Ovid for another few years!  20:34 Myrrhine Philemon: I know I know ... but it helps fill in the gaps! 20:35 Morgana Flavius: LOL, Torrey! 20:35 Aldicius Amaru: Even in antiquity there were different versions, so we have to look closer to find why a particular author chose the one (and emphasis) he did. 20:35 Morgana Flavius: Well, I do want to read Ars Amatoria! 20:35 Torrey Philemon: Back to the great mother....Yes, it's like needing a kind of symbiotic experience in order to heal. But one feels torn apart after being abandoned....and Dionysius rites are related to being torn apart too.....I wonder how all that dismemberment stuff started.  20:35 Morgana Flavius: Oh, I see. 20:36 Dionysos Philemon: With the shamanic experience 20:40 Myrrhine Philemon enters... 20:41 Torrey Philemon: Here's the Bullfinch reference to the Ariadne Dionysos stories: http://www.showgate.com/medea/bulfinch/bull21.html 20:41 Myrrhine Philemon: shamanic experience? 20:42 Aldicius Amaru enters... 20:42 Morgana Flavius: Nisus and Scylla was a new myth for me. I did not know about that before reading it in Ovid. In Torrey's message, I read that she asked why the lock of hair had such a great importance. I did some research on that too. There had been and oracle that warned Nisus that he would not die as long as he could keep that lock of red hair on his head. 20:43 Aldicius Amaru enters... 20:43 Morgana Flavius: (Sorry to bring up another subject, but I thought that nobody was talking about Ariadne anymore as the screen did not change for several minutes) 20:44 Myrrhine Philemon: My cat disconnected me ... 20:44 Morgana Flavius: Aldicius seems to be stuck in a revolving door. *s* 20:45 Myrrhine Philemon: yes, it is a shame! 20:45 Myrrhine Philemon: where did you find out about the oracle Morgana? 20:47 Aldicius Amaru: My screen keeps going blank, and the only way I can get the text back is to reenter.  20:47 Morgana Flavius: It was in the Greek Mythology Link, Myrrhine (I think). 20:48 Myrrhine Philemon: Ok ... i need to do some catching up :) 20:50 Torrey Philemon: Glad you found out more about the hair, Morgana (I kept thinking of Delilah). Actually I was just distracted because I was searching for something on Ariadne and Dionysius in another window and discovered the online myth message board at http://www.loggia.com/myth/wwwboard/wwwboard.html  (look at it later!) 20:50 Torrey Philemon: Aldicius, how big is your cache? Check your browser options. Sometimes having a very small cache can interfere with the screen in a chat.  20:50 Myrrhine Philemon: *G* will do Torrey 20:51 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I had the same thought, Torrey. Scylla did remind me Delilah! 20:53 Aldicius Amaru: I think it's something to do with the latest AS "improvements." Quite a few people have been having the same problem since the changes. 20:54 Morgana Flavius: And Scylla's love for Minos is also very blind! While other women at least thought they had the promise from their partners that they would wed them or at least correspond to their love, Scylla did all she did without having any word from Minos! 20:54 Torrey Philemon: BTW Morgana and other Ariadne fans, there's a novel I have which I read 15 years ago called Ariadne: A Novel of Ancient Crete by June Brindel. I wonder if it's still in print. 20:55 Myrrhine Solon enters... 20:55 Myrrhine Philemon: Hello Myrrhine! 20:55 Morgana Flavius: Not even Minos, after having won the city, liked what she did for him. 20:56 Torrey Philemon: Yes Morgana, it's tempting to keep blaming the men (Jason, Theseus, Odysseus, Aeneas) for abandoning women, but some of these women just throw themselves at men who haven't made any promises of devotion.... 20:56 Myrrhine Solon: Hello Myrrhine. 20:56 Morgana Flavius: Hello, Myrrhine Solon! 20:57 Aldicius Amaru: Hi, Myrrhine! Good to see you again. Unfortunately, I have to leave now--an appointment I can't miss. 20:59 Torrey Philemon: Now we will need to differentiate Myrrhine P and Myrrhine S! (-:    Bye Aldicius!  20:59 Morgana Flavius: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that you have to go, Aldicius, but thanks for showing up anyway! 21:00 Myrrhine Philemon: Bye Aldicius (excuse me while I remove the cat before he disconnects me again *g*) 21:01 Aldicius Amaru: Good-bye all. 21:02 Torrey Philemon: BTW back to the Ariadne story...I just see these references to sources -  Ariadne -> Thoas, Staphylus, Oenopion, and Peparethus: Apollodorus e.1.9, Pausanias 10.29.4, Hesiod: Theogony 945 21:07 Morgana Flavius: Does anyone know how Minos ends up by being a judge in Hades? 21:07 Myrrhine Philemon: no Morgana ... 21:08 Dionysos Philemon: BTW,*g*,LOL. I'm lost. Wanted to answer you, Myrrhine P. ,then the world turned. Why does the screen keep going back and forth. I am enjoying this but feel somewhat lost.  Morgana, I don't know either. 21:09 Dionysos Philemon: Maybe it is the same was that Starr got his appointment 21:09 Myrrhine Philemon: that's ok Dionysos ... I figured you were lost somewhere *g* 21:10 Torrey Philemon: Dionysos, in the bottom of your left screen, you can change the refresh rate. It determines how fast the screen changes..... 21:10 Myrrhine Solon: My apologies. I'm at work and only came as a silent observer. 21:11 Torrey Philemon: I read your question before, Morgana, about Minos as judge in Hades, but don't know either (right now I'm distracted looking up more on Ariadne. There's a fascinating book listed at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0838635822/windweavwebandwi/ (the brindel novel is out of print)  21:11 Myrrhine Philemon: I am doing much the same thing Myrrhine S 21:12 Torrey Philemon: From notes on Apollodorus at Perseus: Homer's account of the fate of Ariadne is different. He says (Hom. Od. 11.321-325) that when Theseus was carrying off Ariadne from Crete to Athens she was slain by Artemis in the island of Dia at the instigation of Dionysus. ). Apollodorus seems to be the only extant ancient author who mentions that Dionysus carried off Ariadne from Naxos to Lemnos and had intercourse with her there. 21:12 Torrey Philemon: I'm doing a little less "taking charge" which means we have even less of a focus than usual. Anyone want to present a QUESTION which we can all discuss?  21:14 Myrrhine Philemon: well, if you don't mind Torrey, I would like to hear more about the psychological aspects of forgetting to honour a god 21:14 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I have read that about Ariadne, Torrey. What fascinates me in Ariadne is that the gods take practically no role in her story. And when a god finally appears, it is to rescue her and make her happy. A very different approach from what we have seen so far, isn't it? 21:16 Torrey Philemon: Apollodorus says Theseus promised marriage: "And when he came to Crete, Ariadne, daughter of Minos, being amorously disposed to him, offered to help him if he would agree to carry her away to Athens and have her to wife. Theseus having agreed on oath to do so, she besought Daedalus to disclose the way out of the labyrinth. " 21:16 Myrrhine Philemon: it contrasts well with the avenging gods later in the book 21:16 Myrrhine Solon exits... 21:19 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Myrrhine P, that's an interesting discussion. Earlier in Metamorphoses, we learned how gods can be terribly vengeful when they are not granted the honor they expect from a person (vide Dionysos himself, in the case of Pitheus in Thebes). In book 8 it is Diana's turn to become angry and she sends the boar do Calydon (spel?) 21:21 Myrrhine Philemon: yes, and in doing so, prevents the people from honouring the gods in the next season ... I found that an incredible act of jealousy 21:21 Torrey Philemon: Ok Myrrhine P....about the psychological facets of honoring the gods....I used to think of this in astrological terms - if one doesn't honor a planet and what it represents (Mars as the forces of assertion/agression; Moon as the emotional needs etc.) we are often forced to deal with the negative facets of that planet or energy.....What we deny and repress generally finds a way of reminding us of its presence, sometimes quite negatively....If we think of the powerful forces of the psyche as gods, or the expression of the gods within, then ignoring those forces can mean that we will eventually be forced into confrontation with them. 21:23 Myrrhine Philemon: ah ok ... I think I understand what you mean Torrey 21:24 Torrey Philemon: (I've been thinking about this myself lately, wondering who/what precisely is god of the Earth, and knowing that not honoring my responsibilities on the Earth plane because I hang out too much in cyberspace means that the Earth will have its revenge on me....or at least seems to be.  When we neglect our material/physical reality, there's a price. Just as when we neglect any other important facet of inner or outer reality. For me, it seems that each of these realms is ruled by a god that speaks both inside and outside of us.... 21:24 Morgana Flavius: yes, Torrey, but reading Ovid, I get the impression that even when we do honor the "god/goddess within ourselves" we do not escape their wrath if we happen to be related to someone who dihonors them... 21:25 Dionysos Philemon: I agree. The Gods provide a balance and if this is ignored they get excited 21:25 Torrey Philemon: Anyway back to Diana and the boar....It is hard for me to grasp that Diana/Artemis can be just as wrathful as Hera (Yes, you're absolutely right Morgana! Being related to someone who dishonors the gods is asking for trouble! It's almost as if there's no concept of individuality apart from family identification.) 21:27 Myrrhine Philemon: the gods don't seem to discriminate in their anger ... but then, perhaps they do not need to explain themselves 21:27 Morgana Flavius: Well, Diana is Latona's daughter... remember what Latona did to Niobe? 21:30 Morgana Flavius: And apparently the concept of a god within us was not totally alien to Ovid (something that did strike me too, Torrey): "But then, is everyone not his own god?" (Metamorphoses, Scylla) 21:32 Torrey Philemon: Yes that line by Scylla is quite amazing. I almost thought that some 20th century person had inserted it in the text. 21:33 Myrrhine Philemon: Yes I thought that too ... but is this not simply an expression of the individuals free will? 21:33 Morgana Flavius: Or, according to another translation: "But Gods we all may be, for those that dare". 21:34 Torrey Philemon: About the gods and anger, Myrrhine. It sure does seem that the way to deal with having been wronged, is to wrong another. It's eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, like the Old Testament. Justice appears to have to do with punishment and revenge doesn't it....not with any making amends, negotiation etc...... 21:35 Morgana Flavius: yes, Myrrhine, and free will is something that not even the gods can take from men... 21:36 Myrrhine Philemon: Yes, I rather liked that line for that reason ...  21:36 Torrey Philemon: I'm curious (I'm not Christian and have never studied Christianity so bear with me on this), that this is the time of Christ....that in history we're at the turning point between a god of vengeance and a god of compassion, are we not? The ancient Greek view is not so different from the Old Testament view, though the latter focuses on one god. The ethics of the times however still appear to be related to wrath, vengeance, punishment... 21:38 Torrey Philemon: When one is wronged, strike out. Hurt the one that hurt you....That's how the gods behave.....and even Greek heroes.  21:39 Myrrhine Philemon: yes, there is no room for compassion 21:39 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, I would say that the world has never succeeded in making the transition between our gods of wrath and punishment and our god (or gods or goddesses, as you wish) of love... 21:40 Morgana Flavius: yes, ancient heroes mirror exactly the same behavior of ancient gods. 21:40 Dionysos Philemon: Torrey :I'm wondering when it got to be a "time of Christ."? I was hoping for a more gracious time. 21:40 Torrey Philemon: well said, Morgana. 21:42 Torrey Philemon: Well, let's look at the dates that Ovid was writing the Metamorphoses. Will have to look  it up, but wasn't it around 8 A.D. (Now I was thinking that 0 A.D. was Christ's birth but was it his death?)  21:43 Morgana Flavius: And have you noticed the change in Hera/Juno approach in the case of Hercules? Instead of killing his mother (who was Jupiter's lover) or punish her in a most terrible way, all she does is to demand that Hercules performs the famous 12 works (which were in accordance with his power). And after his death she does not prevent Jupiter to make him imortal. 21:43 Dionysos Philemon: You are right. I was thinking of the present time frame 21:44 Morgana Flavius: 0 A.D. is Christ's birth. But that is wrong... apparently Jesus was born some 4 years "before Christ" or before A.D. (ain't that funny?) 21:46 Morgana Flavius: By the time of Ovid, Christianism did not exist yet. 21:46 Torrey Philemon: I always thought A.D. meant After Death!! (-: 21:46 Myrrhine Philemon: academics now call it CE Torrey - the Christian Era 21:46 Myrrhine Philemon: academics now call it CE Torrey - the Christian Era 21:47 Myrrhine Philemon: academics now call it CE Torrey - the Christian Era 21:47 Morgana Flavius: Anyhow, as Aldicius said, we must get suspicious when Ovid seems to sound "nice"... he usually strikes back in an even nastier way later. :-) 21:48 Torrey Philemon: Yes Christianity did not exist, so of course there were no Christian influences. But from the larger perspective, we're at a time of history in which a new "ethic", a new way of being in the universe, in relation to "god" and mankind, is about to begin..... 21:49 Morgana Flavius: right, Myrrhine. CE is the more "politically correct" way. But I heard that it means also "common era". And A.D. stands for Anno Domine (spel?), which means Year of the Lord. 21:49 Myrrhine Philemon: yes, I've been studying the worship of Isis at about this time on - there is what is referred to as  proto Christianity emerging ... where you have an individual relationship with your god of choice 21:49 Torrey Philemon: Yes Ovid just goes along with his stories and then suddenly he plunges us into some internal torment....like Althea's conflict of loyalties (very well written) or Erysichton's struggle with famine and unsatisfied hunger (believe me, folks, that is exactly what it's like after you've quit smoking and just want to eat and eat but it doesn't satisfy! ) 21:50 Dionysos Philemon: Torrey, I hopeso. There are some indications but few and far between 21:51 Torrey Philemon: Dionysos, I was using the present tense to talk about the past.....not referring to today! But it would be nice if that were true for today.... 21:53 Torrey Philemon: To clarify, I mean when I said "we're at a time of history", I mean when we are reading Ovid and entering his time..... 21:53 Morgana Flavius: Right Myrrhine. And let's not forget Mithraism too. As a matter of fact, Mithra was exactly the "proto-Christ". And this religion was very popular among poor people. 21:54 Morgana Flavius: But I really don't think that at Ovid's time there was already any strong movement towards more compassion in religious matters... 21:55 Myrrhine Philemon: no, I think that's right Morgana ... it really wasn't even considered 21:56 Torrey Philemon: I agree, Morgana. What we're questioning in regard to the wrath and vengeance of the gods was taken for granted back then....It was apparently the way the gods were and had always been..... 21:56 Morgana Flavius: Actually, I see in Ovid's writings a confirmation that religion is a "state" affair and not related to your personal feelings at all. 21:56 Myrrhine Philemon: oh dear, I really must go, I have visitors coming in half an hour 21:57 Morgana Flavius: It was nice to have you with us, Myrrhine! Bye! 21:58 Myrrhine Philemon: goodbye all! 21:58 Myrrhine Philemon exits... 21:59 Morgana Flavius: What Ovid conveys to me is that besides being what they are, they're not worse or better than mortal people. They're just more powerful! 22:00 Dionysos Philemon: Morgana, where do you see this in Ovid. I seem to remember that the same thing applied in Greece for a time 22:00 Torrey Philemon: Whoops, I missed saying goodbye to Myrrhine. I was researching your earlier question about Minos, Morgana. No luck. The Perseus entries at  http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=encyclopedia+minos  don't even mention him in Hades.  22:01 Torrey Philemon: Right, Morgana. No apparent sense of morality that the gods live by, but they have more power.....and the Fates have power over them.  22:02 Morgana Flavius: I researched Perseus and Greek Mythology Link about Minos in Hades, but didn't find anything that would clarify that. 22:02 Torrey Philemon: I wonder what the differences are between the Roman portrayal of the gods and the Greek portrayal. I can't tell. Do the concepts of any of the gods seem to change? But I guess we have to distinguish also earlier Greece (Homer) from later Greece too.... 22:03 Morgana Flavius: Well I see that in Metamorphoses as a whole. Ovid shows us terrible, passionate, vengeful and sometimes compassionate gods all the time. But oh...! the way they express those feelings is much stronger than mortals! 22:05 Torrey Philemon: Stronger than all mortals, Morgana? (Consider Medea). Or just more powerful because they have more power?  22:05 Morgana Flavius: I haven't given much thought about the difference between Greek and Roman gods. I agree that, at a quick glance, it doesn't seem to have much difference. 22:07 Morgana Flavius: Yes, more powerful because they have more power. Medea (and all the sorceress in ancient mythology) is apparently someone half-way between men and gods. She sure had strong feelings and was very powerful. 22:08 Dionysos Philemon: To my mind the gods lost their humanity when they were trasferred to the Roman pantheon 22:08 Morgana Flavius: There's something that strikes me in Medea's story (if you don't mind that I bring this subject back)... 22:09 Morgana Flavius: Could you tell us more about that, Dionysos? 22:09 Torrey Philemon: I'm getting sidetracked again. I'm doing some Minos research in the other window....Bring up whatever subject you want!  22:10 Morgana Flavius: (While Dionysos types, let me just mention something else about Medea). 22:12 Morgana Flavius: She was a very knowledgeable person. How come she couldn't come up with a "love potion" or something like that to keep Jason by her side? And I would answer that no gods, no magic has any power against man's free will. Gods can kill or change a man's shape. But they can never change their will. 22:14 Dionysos Philemon: The developing humanity of the Greeks was reflected in their Gods,(as our gods are). The rigid Roman lost this humanity when they transposed the same gods into their civilization. I have always felt that Roman civilization was a faulty,badly distorted copy of the best of Greece. 22:18 Morgana Flavius: I believe that the gods of the Roman pantheon were entities that had to be praised and given honor as much as their local ruler. But the Romans had their Lares and Penates. Those were their personal gods of "devotion" (usually family deities). And they were worshiped in private and were nobody else's business (besides the family). 22:18 Torrey Philemon: Morgana I think in Ovid we saw a lot of mortals and god being overcome with an emotion. Like with Medea - her wrath and jealousy ruled, and all there was was a desire for revenge. Again and again we see gods and humans losing their judgment as they're swept away by desire or rage.... 22:19 Morgana Flavius: Did the Greeks have gods like the Roman Lares and Penates? Do you know about that, Dionysos? 22:21 Dionysos Philemon: Morgana, I don't know. 22:22 Torrey Philemon: (Back to your Minos question, Morgana, I just saw reference on a message board to Minos in Hell originating in Virgil's Aeneid, book 6) 22:23 Torrey Philemon: (Minos discussion at http://killdevilhill.com/infernochat/messages2/123.html ) 22:24 Morgana Flavius: Well, apparently, Lares and Penates (the domestic Roman gods) were more compassionate deities, but I guess there's not much material about them (probably because it was really a private affair within each domus). 22:24 Torrey Philemon: Dionysos, do you know of any writings that intelligently discuss the differences between Greek and Roman gods...how concepts of gods were changed by the Romans?  22:27 Torrey Philemon: (I just grammed this to Morgana....when you want to take revenge on someone, send them to Minos in hell  http://project.endless.org/inferno/text/txmin/txmin.html ) 22:28 Morgana Flavius: I'm  interested in those writings too. 22:29 Dionysos Philemon: No I don't, Torrey. I believe soe of this comparison may be in J. Campbells work and I will try to find it. Regarding the Lares, etc.., it would seem to me this was another extension of the Romans psyche since they were not that sure of themselves when it came to issues of this sort. 22:29 Morgana Flavius: About Minos, the only clue I have is that he was a law giver during his kingship in Crete (from pseudo-Apollodorus library) 22:29 Torrey Philemon: There is a discussion board somewhere at A.S. on Roman gods where this subject has been discussed a little bit. Anyone remember where it is? Is it on Mythquest or on the general Greek myth board perhaps?  22:32 Torrey Philemon: I have to go in a minute...am leaving for Maine tomrrow and have to make last minute plans tonight.....I hope you'll all continue to post soon on our message board. I'd also like to talk about the meaning of a new kind of transformation that Ovid introduces....continuously altering shapes like Proteus and Erichsython's daughter....fluid vs. static transformations..... 22:33 Morgana Flavius: Right, Dionysos. I have a feeling that the religious sense (as we perceive it today, as something relating to our personal lives) was dealt by Romans in a very private way, in their domestic shrines, where they worshiped their own Lares and Penates. The rest, was public affair or art subjects. But of course, they would never admit it publicly. :-) 22:34 Morgana Flavius: I think it is in the general Greek myth board, Torrey. 22:34 Torrey Philemon: This transcript will be available here, but I will also post it on my web site early next week....And Dionysos, I'd love to hear more of your own "Jungian" perspective.... 22:35 Torrey Philemon: (I'm going to make a phone call....if you're still here when I return, I'll join you all again! Otherwise goodnight!) 22:35 Morgana Flavius: And when can we have our next chat on Metamorphoses? 22:36 Morgana Flavius: I must go too. It is very late here. We can set the date for next chat through the board. 22:37 Dionysos Philemon: I have enjoyed this, have a good trip to Maine, Torrey. Dideither of you note the imagery in Scylla, lines 21 - 26. She plays the ghosts of Applollos music.  22:38 Dionysos Philemon: Good Night. I look forward to the next one 22:39 Morgana Flavius: Dionysos, please post your comments in the Ovid board, in MythQuest. I am also interested in your Jungian perspective of myths! (I noticed that Scylla plays with the peebles as if it were Apollo's musical instrument) 22:40 Morgana Flavius: Good night all! 22:40 Dionysos Philemon exits... 22:41 Morgana Flavius exits... 22:52 Torrey Philemon exits...

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