The Odyssey Chats at Ancient Sites
Odyssey Chat Transcripts
Greek and Roman Mythology Pages from Ancient Sites by Tracy Marks
NOTE: Many Community members of "Athens" at Ancient Sites (which folded in 1999) participated in biweekly chats on the classics, including the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. Later, several of us continued with the chats, studying The Metamorphoses by Ovid and other texts related to ancient Greek and Roman history. Many of these chats have been posted online by Tracy Marks (alias Torrey Philemon from Ancient Sites). Each participant maintains his/her own copyright; this material may not be reproduced.
ODYSSEY CHAT THREE:
12:02 Torrey Philemon enters...
12:02 Theseus Artistides enters...
12:02 Petra Stuyvesant enters...........
12:06 Torrey
Philemon: Shall we begin, even though there's only three of us to start?
12:07 Theseus
Artistides: Nice work the Hades, etc. page, by the way Torrey!
12:07 Torrey
Philemon: I'm using IE for the first time. My Netscape can't connect
at all.
12:07 Torrey
Philemon: Thanks Theseus. Didn't know if anyone had time to read it.
More questions than answers.
12:07 Theseus
Artistides: Hey, three is a great number! Yes, let's start.
12:07 Petra
Stuyvesant: okay!
12:08 Torrey
Philemon: Any topics either of you want to bring up? We're deaing with
everything from Cyclops through the Island of the Sun, including the Hades
experience.
12:09 Petra
Stuyvesant: Well, I would like to explore the character of Circe as
well as some other things
12:09 Theseus
Artistides: I was wondering if you could say that the events in the
Cyclop's cave were the beginning of O's adventure, while the Hades cave
experience was the beginning of the end of his adventure?
12:10 Torrey
Philemon: Actually I think the Lotos Easters was first. The Jungian
interpretation is that it was the entry into "the dream world" or the collective
unconscious.
12:10 Theseus
Artistides: I have to admit, I liked Circe. She was a pretty
good witch. *grin*
12:10 Petra
Stuyvesant: That sounds like the cycle of life to me, from the cave
(womb) to the next world :^)
12:11 Torrey
Philemon: Didn't he kind of end in a cave too...Calypso was afterwards.
12:11 Torrey
Philemon: The cave of the male (Cyclops) to the cave of the female
(Calypso).
12:12 Theseus
Artistides: Okay, the Lotus eaters as the prelude to the journey, and
the cave as the critical inception of his troubles...
12:12 Torrey
Philemon: Sounds right.
12:12 Theseus
Artistides: Everything between that and the scene in the underworld
as the voyage out (or deeper), and everything after as the voyage home,
to himself.
12:13 Torrey
Philemon: So what's your opinion of Circe?
12:13 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think she is very complex.
12:13 Torrey
Philemon: That's a nice way of describing the voyage, Theseus.
12:14 Theseus
Artistides: Yeah, there are three caves. And that matches up
better with my start, out, then back pyramid. :-)
12:14 Torrey
Philemon: How is she complex, Petra? (What's the third cave?)
12:15 Petra
Stuyvesant: She obviously wields a lot of power, but it can be worked
around through natural herbs and mental strength. She seems to be
a bit selfish, yet offers O the keys to overcoming the physical trials
of his upcoming journey
12:15 Theseus
Artistides: She seems remarkably well behaved and cooperative compared
to everyone else on the journey.
12:15 Torrey
Philemon: Doesn't she appear to change several times? First men into
pigs, then befriend Odysseus, then later help him.
12:16 Theseus
Artistides: Three caves... Cyclops, Hades, Calypso.
12:16 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yes, it's difficult for me to figure out her motives.
12:16 Torrey
Philemon: Why do you think she helps him as much as she does?
12:17 Theseus
Artistides: I think she's charmed by O's natural charm.
12:17 Theseus
Artistides: (so to speak)
12:17 Petra
Stuyvesant: Isn't he the first man to ever resist her transformation
to swine?
12:18 Torrey
Philemon: You said you liked her Theseus. Just wondering about a man's
experience of her ...how she might be attractive.
12:19 Torrey
Philemon: Interesting point, Petra. Maybe she respects someone who
she isn't able to control.
12:19 Theseus
Artistides: Well, she's obviously a woman to be reckoned with, powerful,
intelligent, beautiful (I think)...
12:20 Theseus
Artistides: She must have been looking for someone of equal stature,
and was probably lonely until someone came along who she could think of
as something of an equal.
12:21 Petra
Stuyvesant: Then she had to swear to the Gods that she would not enchant
O further, so I think after that point she had a higher authority to account
to.
12:21 Torrey
Philemon: In The Hero and the Goddess, Jean Houston speaks of the moly
as that which keeps us being drawn into our lower selves. Our kind of divine
protection which helps us resist regression.
12:22 Torrey
Philemon: Keeps us FROM being drawn into our lower selves.
12:22 Theseus
Artistides: I, personally, respect a woman who will not compromise...
Men are either good and worthwile (Odysseus) or not (swine).
12:23 Theseus
Artistides: (Of course, I do seem to be identifying myself with O and
not his men.)
12:23 Petra
Stuyvesant: The thing that struck me most (while she was counselling
O on how to avoid the upcoming dangers) is when she asks him ''Must you
have battle in your heart forever?"
12:24 Torrey
Philemon: Don't remember that Petra. What was that in reference to?
12:24 Petra
Stuyvesant: Because some things can NOT be overcome, just endured
12:24 Theseus
Artistides: Yeah, I don't remember that line either. Maybe it's
translation specific.
12:25 Torrey
Philemon: Right. Like she counselled him to NOT try to fight Scylla.
Yet he does take up arms, I think, and loses six of his men.
12:25 Petra
Stuyvesant: Around line 130 in book12 after he asks "how if possible,
can I pass Kharybdis, or fight off Skylla when she raids my crew?"
12:25 Torrey
Philemon: What translations are you both reading? I have Fagles.
12:25 Theseus
Artistides: Butler again.
12:26 Petra
Stuyvesant: Robert Fitzgerald
12:26 Torrey
Philemon: He does want to see Scylla, right, so he takes more risks
than he's supposed to.
12:27 Theseus
Artistides: Does he lose the men because he fights, or is his resistance
merely futile?
12:27 Torrey
Philemon: He says that was his most painful experience, losing his
six men to Scylla...even though he lost men to the Cyclops who also ate
them.
12:28 Torrey
Philemon: I THINK he loses men because he tries to see her, hopes he'll
see her before she sees him.
12:28 Petra
Stuyvesant: But he knew in advance that he would lose six and said
nothing so the guilt must be greater
12:28 Torrey
Philemon: He's learning when NOT to fight and when to keep silent.
A preparation for dealing with the suitors, being patient.
12:29 Petra
Stuyvesant: He did avoid losing another 6 though, which Circe said
might happen
12:29 Torrey
Philemon: Did either of you see the movie? There's a big focus on the
movie in regard to teaching Telemachus when to fight and when to restrain
himself.
12:29 Theseus
Artistides: Well, would it have been better to say, "Hey guys, we're
going to lose six of you. I don't know who exactly, but six of you
are Scylla fodder."?
12:30 Torrey
Philemon: The Cyclops was a devouring male and Scylla a devouring female.
12:30 Torrey
Philemon: He does seem to withhold some information from his crew,
doesn't he? As he did with Aeolus. They wanted to find out what was in
the windbag.
12:30 Theseus
Artistides: Hmmm, do you think he felt worse because he lost these
to a feminine creature?
12:31 Petra
Stuyvesant: in my Lawrence translation Circe asks O, "Will you not
even gove the Gods best?" which I think is even a more powerful way
of showing O's determination to forge his own destiny (not allowing the
Gods to play their part) like functional atheism in a way not allowing
space for the Gods in your life. Even though in this case he knows
that space will be painfully filled.
12:31 Theseus
Artistides: That was different, I think. He should definitely
have told them what was in that bag!
12:32 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think he felt worse because he had no control, and that
is what he is used to most of the time (perhaps *that* was why he wept
so much on Ogyia, lack of control)
12:32 Torrey
Philemon: He takes a risk anyway with Scylla, sets himself against
the gods or challenges fate.
12:33 Theseus
Artistides: More power to Odysseus if that's the case! My favorite
line from the new Hercules (which I infrequently watch) was from the first
episode... "The gods had better stay out of my way."
12:34 Petra
Stuyvesant: oops, typo up there :give the Gods (not gove)
12:34 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Petra, it doesn't work for him to approach life like
a warrior in battle anymore.
12:34 Theseus
Artistides: gove's okay, luv
12:35 Petra
Stuyvesant: I saw the NBC version of the movie last week and it confused
me a little, they didn't follow the story as much as I had hoped, was a
little confusing in fact, didn't remember Circe tricking O and his men
into losing 5 years of time in the book.
12:35 Theseus
Artistides: She didn't.
12:36 Petra
Stuyvesant: thanks Th.
12:36 Torrey
Philemon: I don't remember that part of the movie. Did they not show
the men transformed into swine?
12:36 Petra
Stuyvesant: Good, because I went back to re-read that part thinking
I had missed something.
12:37 Theseus
Artistides: I thought the best thing about that mini-series is that
they chose this for their subject matter.
12:38 Petra
Stuyvesant: the men were transformed into all kinds of animals, Gracie
Allen that I am I started thinking "Oh this is where the word Circus comes
from" but I'm sure someone will correct me on the FB BB as I always
take apart words in the wrong way :^)
12:38 Torrey
Philemon: Writer's license. Makes you wonder what license Homer took
too. If he changed anything in the myths he had learned, for the sake of
the story.
12:38 Torrey
Philemon: Circus, interesting.
12:38 Theseus
Artistides: LOL - That's funny! Circe - Circus!
12:39 Theseus
Artistides: I'm sure Circus comes from Circle.
12:39 Petra
Stuyvesant: This is a side question: I know Homer was blind,
but have you noticed there are several key characters that are also blind?
12:39 Theseus
Artistides: Or they come from the same latin root.
12:39 Torrey
Philemon: Anyone know what Circe means?
12:40 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Tiresias is blind. The Cyclops is blinded. Anyone else?
12:40 Petra
Stuyvesant: Circus then from circle is probably the ring, like 3-ring
circus
12:40 Theseus
Artistides: Circa, circus, etc.
12:40 Petra
Stuyvesant: The singer at the party that tells the tale of O and makes
him cry
12:41 Torrey
Philemon: That's right. The blind bard.
12:41 Petra
Stuyvesant: I thought that might be Homer injecting himself into the
story at that point
12:42 Torrey
Philemon: Is there anything the blind seem to have in common?
12:42 Theseus
Artistides: Hmmm, if we're not even sure if Homer was a real individual
person, then how can we speculate if he was blind?
12:43 Petra
Stuyvesant: They do not see in the physical world and to Cyclops this
was a great hindrance, but for T it did not take away from his inner vision,
perhaps it even clarified things for him, no distractions
12:43 Theseus
Artistides: The blind are certainly critical to this story, but I don't
quite see their significance.
12:43 Theseus
Artistides: So to speak.
12:43 Petra
Stuyvesant: Is that true Thesus? I didn't know that.
12:43 Torrey
Philemon: I'm reminded of The Little Prince. "What is essential is
invisible to the eye."
12:45 Torrey
Philemon: Odysseus learns not to be seduced by physical reality, and
to hold to his inner purpose.
12:45 Theseus
Artistides: I have always understood there was quite a bit of controversy
surrounding the "person of Homer."
12:45 Petra
Stuyvesant: Well, I always wonder why a character is given a particular
handicap, Homer could have cosen other things, why blindness? Some
handicaps have a history like Achille's heel, but sometimes you just have
to figure out why a person is afflicted with something - what other things
does it enhance for example.
12:46 Torrey
Philemon: From what I know, that's true, Theseus. Some scholars still
don't think he was one person.
12:47 Torrey
Philemon: Odysseus is somewhat "blind" at first - like unconscious.
Maybe he has to learn to see more deeply into things and not just rely
on his senses.
12:48 Torrey
Philemon: And making himself visible physically or by name gets him
into trouble.
12:48 Theseus
Artistides: The bard's blindness seems incidental. The cyclops
is blinded by O. How did Tiresias lose his sight?
12:48 Petra
Stuyvesant: O is definetly a bit above the normal "limbic system" responses
of his generation - I mean, he is someone who strives to oversome his more
basic responses.
12:49 Torrey
Philemon: There are three different stories of why Tiresias loses his
sight. He tells the secrets of the gods, he tells Hera that women enjoy
sex more, and I think the last is that he sees Athena naked. Something
like that.
12:49 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think T saw Athene naked and she blinded him
12:50 Torrey
Philemon: There's an interesting story that he was transformed into
a female for a number of years, and therefore knew female experience as
well as male.
12:51 Theseus
Artistides: I think all three of those are related... Telling or seeing
the truth... a truth which some one would rather not be seen or told.
12:51 Torrey
Philemon: In a way, Tiresias is blinded for challenging the gods, gaining
power over them.
12:52 Kaliber Solon enters...
12:52 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Theseus. Sort of like making visible what should be
hidden.
12:52 Torrey
Philemon: Welcome Kaliber. We're talking about Tiresias' blindness.
12:52 Theseus
Artistides: The truth is power, and the more powerful the truth, the
higher the price.
12:53 Petra
Stuyvesant: Oh, I just read Joesph Campbell's student's joke about
why he was blinded. Did you read that in the Hero and the Goddess,
Torrey?
12:53 maia Nestor enters...
12:53 Torrey
Philemon: What do you think about Odysseus with his men? Should he
tell the truth more than he does? He certainly warns them against eating
the cattle.
12:54 Torrey
Philemon: Welcome, Maia.
12:54 Theseus
Artistides: Maia! Hi there!
12:54 maia
Nestor: Hello all...sorry I'm late.
12:54 Petra
Stuyvesant: Good afternoon Kaliber and Maia!
12:55 Theseus
Artistides: How specific is his warning? I seem to remember it
was a bit on the vague side.
12:56 Torrey
Philemon: I think this time he learned to tell them what was going
on. But he was feeling more resigned to fate, and afraid they wouldn't
listen. And like with the windbag, they get into trouble when he takes
a nap.
12:57 Petra
Stuyvesant: Mine says: "Let this whole company swear me a great oath:
Any herd of cattle or flock of sheep here shall go unharmed...."
12:57 Theseus
Artistides: Maybe the moral of this story is pick your crew wisely.
12:57 Petronilla Livius enters...
12:58 Torrey
Philemon: Before that, it seems like the men's disobedience may be
partly Odysseus' fault as a leader. But it doesn't seem to me that he's
at fault with the cattle incident. Does it to you?
12:58 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think they were as good a crew as he could get, they
were very tired!
12:58 maia
Nestor: There is a theme about Odysseus...the Autolycan element perhaps;
that he is the ultimate outsider.
12:58 Torrey
Philemon: Hello, Petronilla. Feel free to join in.
12:58 Petra
Stuyvesant: Hello Petronilla!!!
12:59 Petronilla
Livius: Hi all - just got in!
12:59 maia
Nestor: Odysseus was not easily understood by the paradigms of the
time, and I think, as much as his crew must have trusted him, they resented
him. Remember, he was also their king.
12:59 Torrey
Philemon:
How is he the ultimate outsider, Maia?
13:00 Petra
Stuyvesant: I think he is acut above the men of his time, and obviously
below the Gods, he surely does stand outside the crowd.
13:00 Theseus
Artistides: No, he was clearly at fault with the windbag incident,
but the island incident is the crew's own fault.
13:00 maia
Nestor: In Troy, he is the princeling from a little land, little known,
little wealth. Do you remember how he urges the men to eat in the Iliad,
and Achilles is scornful?
13:00 Petra
Stuyvesant: I agree, Theseus
13:01 maia
Nestor: O is like no one else, he has been described as the first modern
man...excellence, such as Achilles- well that is easy to look up to. But
people resent excellence of the mind...
13:01 maia
Nestor: He thinks like no one else, acts like no one else...
13:01 Torrey
Philemon: And people resent authority, especially when they're tired
and starving.
13:02 Petra
Stuyvesant: I agree with that too, Maia
13:02 Torrey
Philemon: It didn't occur to me. He must be very lonely, in a way.
Maybe part of why he's seduced by women.
13:02 maia
Nestor: He is so used to keeping his own counsel- if there is a fault
with him in the bag of winds story, it is that he didn't share with his
men. But that was his way, the way of survival.
13:02 Petra
Stuyvesant: I'll look it up, but I think they prefer a quick death
to stavation at that point, so they know the risk
13:03 Torrey
Philemon: He has to learn when to speak and when not to speak. When
to tell the truth and when to withhold it.
13:03 Torrey
Philemon: I think that's right, Petra. They figure they're done for
anyway, so they might as well die after a good meal.
13:03 Theseus
Artistides: I think you're right about that Petra.
13:04 maia
Nestor: Seduced by women? You have to again, remember the times...infidelity
in a man was fairly de rigeur. Odysseus had no woman at Troy that we know
of. Circe...just a lull for him, I think. He was exhausted. And Calypso
kept him against his will. With Circe, he had to sleep with her; Hermes
(his great grandfather btw) told him to.
13:04 maia
Nestor: Yes, Petra is correct, I think.
13:04 Petra
Stuyvesant: "Better open your lungs to a big sea once and for all than
waste to skin and bones on a lonely island!"
13:04 Torrey
Philemon: Actually, I was sorry I wrote "seduced by women" after I
wrote it. It sounds like the patriarchal attitude that women are to blame.
13:06 maia
Nestor: I think it is hard for modern readers to reconcile his deep,
all encompassing love for his wife with his two dalliances...but then we
must recall what the times were, the conventions and customs.
13:06 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Maia. It appears that Odysseus' infidelity is acceptable
but Penelope's wouldn't be in those times.
13:06 Petra
Stuyvesant: I don't see that he had any choice under the circumstances,
and I'm big on fidelity :^)
13:07 maia
Nestor: Well, that, I think, is mirrored everywhere, and simply because
a man needed to know who his son was. If he was indeed the father.
13:07 Petronilla
Livius: And he does ask if Penelope has wed another when he talks with
his mother
13:08 Petra
Stuyvesant: Am I correct though in thinking that Penelope's would be
excused if she was married according to the traditions at the time, since
the assembly agreed that she should remarry?
13:08 Theseus
Artistides: I don't know if we know anything about standards of fidelity
as they apply to Penelope, at least not from this book.
13:08 maia
Nestor: There is a myth that his son by Circe came back to Ithaka and
killed him, you know. But it seems to contradict Homer's canon.
13:08 maia
Nestor: If she had promised O to not marry until her son was raised,
and that son is now raised...there was nothing against her marrying.
13:09 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, some kind of story about Telemachus that does exist
in writing. Don't remember the author. Telemachus supposedly married Circe.
13:09 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yes, Maia, that's what I understood, thanks.
13:09 Theseus
Artistides: You're right about that Petra. It would not have
been a crime if Penelope had remarried.
13:10 Torrey
Philemon: But in those times, Maia, she wouldn't have had an affair
without being married, right?
13:10 Torrey
Philemon: Not that the suitors were exactly appealing to her.
13:10 maia
Nestor: And Penelope married Circe's son...Telegonus, I think. But
that wasn't Homer. That was a later convention.
13:11 maia
Nestor: No...if she had an affair, according to the tenets laid out
by Homer, or implied, anyway, she would have been guilty.
13:11 Petra
Stuyvesant: Now it's straing to sound like "Peyton Place"
13:11 maia
Nestor: That's what that all comes down to...a son should know who
sired him.
13:11 Petra
Stuyvesant: starting
13:12 maia
Nestor: Yes Petra...well, the sex is hardly the issue. The journey
is everything.
13:12 Torrey
Philemon: Do you all want to talk about Odysseus' experience in Hades?
Like what he learned there, and what the purpose of all his encounters
there was?
13:12 maia
Nestor: Who this man was, how he thought, what he went through...his
rejection of immortality, his need to be home...not just with his wife
and son, but his Ithaka.
13:13 Torrey
Philemon: Why did he have to descend into Hades before he could go
home (symbolically?)
13:13 Petra
Stuyvesant: That's true, but there must have been a sensibilty about
family roles that is MUCH different than now, I agree sex is not really
the issue, but all these role reversals are difficult to manage
13:14 Petra
Stuyvesant: Sure Torrey
13:14 Petronilla
Livius: I was fascinated with the list of women her saw in Hades
13:14 maia
Nestor: See...I think we are taking a simple story about a complex
man and turning it into a complex story about a simple man. Hades? Couldn't
it have just been a literary device? We have to remember what a genius,
in that sense, Homer was.
13:15 Torrey
Philemon: Say more, Petronilla. I wonder what the purpose of encountering
these specific women was.
13:15 maia
Nestor: Hesior has a fragment that mirrors the women in hell...
13:16 Torrey
Philemon: A literary device? Like Hades is Odysseus' confrontation
with his future and his past.
13:16 Petra
Stuyvesant: Jean Houston talks about these women as "the mothers"
13:17 Torrey
Philemon: I noticed that too, Petra. She talks about his meeting the
fathers and meeting the mothers.
13:17 Petra
Stuyvesant: the "Realm of the Mothers" represent rebirth and transformation
13:17 Theseus
Artistides: I do think it's important to remember that Homer is primarily
trying to entertain, while also creating a masterpiece.
13:18 Torrey
Philemon: A writer often have several purposes. To entertain and to
enlighten etc.
13:18 maia
Nestor: You see, this is what my friend Gnaeus Cassius calls the Gravesian
dreamworld...how many people here have ever tried to write fiction?
13:18 Torrey
Philemon: Like Gulliver's travels. That's a kind of 18th century (was
it 18th?) Odyssey.
13:18 Theseus
Artistides: Me, me, me!
13:19 maia
Nestor: Yes, Theseus, I agree! When writing fiction, do you think,
ah, this would be a good metaphor for the life/death experience, this would
be a good anecdote to illustrate embracing the shadow? I don't think so...I
think we write to tell a story, and that kind of stuff just happens.
13:19 Petra
Stuyvesant: Yes, Theseus and the entertinment part, at least for me,
stems from the fact that he transcends blown-up versions of everyday trials
and tribulations. That's the great thing about myth, they are larger
than life and represent life. Micro/Macro
13:19 Theseus
Artistides: But I've never heard of a "Gravesian dreamworld."
13:19 maia
Nestor: Not Gulliver though...that was satire, and so it had to be
intended.
13:19 Torrey
Philemon: I've written screenplays, in which you have to condense several
levels of meaning into one story line.
13:20 Petra
Stuyvesant: To me this is not a stream of thought work, lots of layers
and hidden meanings
13:20 maia
Nestor: I think Odysseus went to hades for several reasons: to see
his mother, learn that loss. To hear Agamemnon's story, to have closure
with Agamemnon, non-closure with Aias. To see the women of myth...just
as part of the story.
13:21 Torrey
Philemon: I consciously construct metaphors and symbolism, Maia. I
think that writers' processes differ.
13:21 maia
Nestor: Has to do with Rob't Graves, Theseus. His embrasure of Laura
Riding's overthetop theories...wishthink.
13:21 Theseus
Artistides: Yes, Maia. I wrote a very large heroic epic (unpublished),
just trying to write a good story, and when I went back for the subsequent
drafts I kept finding interesting little facets and connections I hadn't
really intended.
13:22 maia
Nestor: Well Torrey, you are very mystical...I don't think most do
that. I always remember how the Beatles were lauded for their Aeolian cadence,
their deliberate usage, and they had no idea what the critics were talking
about...
13:22 Petra
Stuyvesant: I like the idea that this mother-realm informs him of the
patterns in things and how these mothers tell him of how they were intimate
with the Gods. Since he has had a similar experience now, he can
understand the importance of communing with the Gods, that you don't just
"go it alone."
13:22 maia
Nestor: Yes, Theseus...the MUses! I agree...I've done the same thing.
You write your piece and the lietmotifs appear...
13:23 Torrey
Philemon: Gee, Theseus, we'll have to read your heroic epic next! Sounds
interesting and challenging!
13:23 maia
Nestor: Homer was a genius, unparalleled in my eyes, but we must remember
he was a Dark Age poet. Simpler tools for a simpler time.
13:23 maia
Nestor: That'
13:24 maia
Nestor: That's true Petra. But he was very connected with the gods,
no? Specifically Athena...
13:24 Petra
Stuyvesant: Maia, I think your comment about the Beatles is still true,
great art pulls from a source that even the artist is sometimes unaware
of.
13:24 Torrey
Philemon: Whatever Homer intended, Maia, we can still see deeper meanings
in what he wrote, even if he wasn't conscious of them. And those deeper
meanings probably spoke to the people of his times, as the myths did.
13:24 Theseus
Artistides: (I am planning on rewriting it, maybe soon.)
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