The Odyssey Chats at Ancient Sites

Odyssey Chat Transcripts
Greek and Roman Mythology Pages from Ancient Sites by Tracy Marks

NOTE: Many Community members of "Athens" at Ancient Sites (which folded in 1999) participated in biweekly chats on the classics, including the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. Later, several of us continued with the chats, studying The Metamorphoses by Ovid and other texts related to ancient Greek and Roman history. Many of these chats have been posted online by Tracy Marks (alias Torrey Philemon from Ancient Sites). Each participant maintains his/her own copyright; this material may not be reproduced.

CHAT FIVE: Odyssey, Books 17-20 continued

Back to beginning of chat five

13:11 Hetaira Lysias enters...
13:11 Theseus Artistides: Or, forgive me for going out on a Freudian limb, maybe Penelope's subconscious is betraying the idea that she might like all the attention the birds have been giving her.
13:12 Torrey Philemon: Welcome, Myrhhine...Well, it's puzzling. My first impression of the dream is that the geese are something she treasures, and that the eagle is the "bad guy". The interpretation given then reverses it
13:12 Hetaira Lysias: Hey there folks. *groggy smile* 
13:12 maia Nestor: Hetaira! 
13:12 Athenia Glaucon: Welcome to the world of light, Hetaira. <g>
13:12 maia Nestor: BTW, gang, Gorgo sends her regrets. 
13:12 Torrey Philemon: Heh heh Maia might dispute that, Theseus! (the old Is-Penelope-at-all-at-fault issue)
13:12 Theseus Artistides: Hetaira!!!
13:13 Aurora Inca: Theseus - good point. Who isn't flattered by attention a little bit, even if unwanted, if it isn't TOO annoying.
13:13 Hetaira Lysias: Hey Athenia, Theseus, maia and anyone else I can't focus properly on at the moment. :) 
13:13 Athenia Glaucon: Maybe, Torrey, she doesn't "enjoy" watching the geese as much as she finds them amusing. 
13:13 maia Nestor: Now come on, Torrey, I never said she was without fault! She'd be perfect then, and perfection is boring. 
13:13 Theseus Artistides: Now, how am I going to keep the goofy grin off my face?
13:13 maia Nestor: Hetaira stayed up way too late last night partying with me. My fault. 
13:13 Torrey Philemon: I'm partly teasing you, Maia!
13:13 Hetaira Lysias: Why would that be Freudian Theseus? *curious look* 
13:14 Theseus Artistides: Whoa, the dream interp. thing was just an idle thought!
13:14 maia Nestor: Just partly, Torrey? *grin*
13:15 Hetaira Lysias: Dream interpretation by way of Freud is pretty limited, he always took it back to the basics; penis-envy, id and unresolved childhood issues. 
13:16 Theseus Artistides: Ah, then I am mistaken... The subconscious is hardly my forte.
13:16 Torrey Philemon: Fagles: I keep 20 geese in the house, from the water trough/ they come and peck their wheat - I love to watchm them. But down from a mountain swooped this great hook-beaked eagle.
13:16 Hetaira Lysias: Now a Jungian interpretation of the dream might uncover some interesting archetypes. Birds in particular could be seen as freedom, flight from responsibility, so on. :) 
13:16 maia Nestor: And the conscious, Theseus?
13:16 Theseus Artistides: And Freud is even further down there on my list of specialties.
13:17 Theseus Artistides: I'm certainly better with the conscious.
13:17 Hetaira Lysias: I think he might have even said birds were higher thought processes. *musing* 
13:18 Torrey Philemon: The eagle is so often an omen....divine intervention.
13:18 Athenia Glaucon: And geese are certainly earthy birds, commonplace, where eagles were more lofty, more "of the Gods."
13:18 maia Nestor: As a rule, I always defer to oracles and hetairae.
13:19 Aurora Inca: Domesticity vs. the Hunter. The stay-at-home suitors defeated by the homecoming warrior?
13:19 Torrey Philemon: I get hung up on the part about "she loved to watch" the geese ( I'm a  dream therapist and lead dream interpretation groups in real life, so I can get carried away with this)
13:19 Hetaira Lysias: Divine intervention in that time, the higher mind in this time?  There was no ego, super-ego or anima/animus in Homer's day. *grin* 
13:19 Athenia Glaucon: Hetairae first - they know everything.
13:19 Torrey Philemon: Maia, that's a great "signature line"!
13:20 Athenia Glaucon: But that might be Fagles's words, not Penelope's. Anyone else got a different translation?
13:20 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah actually, I just saw Aurora's comment, I like that. 
13:21 maia Nestor: And that's a good point, Hetaira...there were omens in Homer's time, but certainly no consciousness of the subconscious. 
13:21 Torrey Philemon: Hetaira, I'd think it was all there, they just called it by another name. Hubris for one..
13:21 Hetaira Lysias: I have Fitzgerald's around here *searching*
13:22 Aurora Inca: What book is the "loved to watch" in? I haven't read that far....
13:22 Theseus Artistides: I'm thinking 19.
13:23 Torrey Philemon: There's some theory isn't there Maia about the development of the human brain since Homer's time. Like the right brain and left brain were configured differently...and what was in the "unconscious" was once projected onto gods/omens and actually heard as "voices". Forget the source, there's some book on the subject...
13:23 Hetaira Lysias: So Hubris in that day an age translates to what in common day? Not being true to your higher mind? 
13:23 Torrey Philemon: In Fagles, it's 19:606...
13:24 Athenia Glaucon: That's pretty much the way it is in most aboriginal cultures. Folks who "see"  or "hear" things are touched by the gods.
13:24 maia Nestor: Hubris is just being insolent towards the gods. Well, Torrey, I don't ascribe to that theory...human evolution works far more slowly than that. It's just cultural differences...
13:24 maia Nestor: Are you thinking of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, Torrey?
13:24 Aurora Inca: OK. Lawrence says "and I love wtaching them"
13:25 Torrey Philemon: I brought up hubris in reference the comment about no conception of EGO or the unconscious...
13:25 Athenia Glaucon: My ancient translation says that the geese "gladden her eyes."
13:25 Aurora Inca: I've read that, too, Torrey. Though I don't remember where. And those that still hear them as voices, we treat with medication.
13:25 Torrey Philemon: That may be the source, Maia.
13:25 maia Nestor: In simpler times, things were simpler. 
13:26 Theseus Artistides: I agree with Maia on the cultural vs. evolution aspect.  (But apparently, I have nothing new to add.)
13:26 Athenia Glaucon: Its by S.O. Andrew from the 1953 Everyman's library. My mom or dad stole it from the public library. ;-)
13:26 maia Nestor: Like Agamemnon, when he is trying, in the Iliad to say why he acted in such a way, just shrugs his shoulders and says ATE....
13:27 maia Nestor: They had a very simple heroic code, and that is how they lived. None of this, my father left me, my mother was a tramp....they didn't THINK in those terms. 
13:27 Hetaira Lysias: Yes, I know, and I was asking for clarification Torrey, you threw hubris out there, quantify it for me in present day psychology so that I know I'm getting the message correctly. 
13:27 Hetaira Lysias: Please. :) 
13:28 Torrey Philemon: My reference to hubris was just an aside. Just musing on different conceptions of ego, in different ways, at different times...
13:29 Hetaira Lysias: Okay, just checking. I thought you had something specific in mind. 
13:29 Theseus Artistides: I thought hubris was overweaning arrogance, in particular in relation to a mortal and the gods and/or fate.
13:30 maia Nestor: Yes, just real insolence. Believing in yourself to the exclusion of the gods. 
13:30 Theseus Artistides: Is it time for another question?
13:30 Hetaira Lysias: I think we established that Theseus, I was actually thinking about how hubris works in post depth-psychology minds. :) 
13:30 Hetaira Lysias: i.e. would hubris be someone with control issues? *grin* 
13:31 Athenia Glaucon: We'd probably call it sociopathy.
13:31 Torrey Philemon: Anyone else want to put out a question? I always have a reservoir of them, but let's see what you all have.
13:31 Theseus Artistides: "post depth-psychology minds"?
13:31 Hetaira Lysias: Meglomania Athenia? 
13:31 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah Freud/Jung. 
13:31 Theseus Artistides: Oh, I get it.  Never mind.
13:32 Athenia Glaucon: No, because that allows for other people, even if only as tools. sociopathy  is about "me."
13:32 Theseus Artistides: I seem to be somewhat slow today.
13:33 Hetaira Lysias: I'm with ya Theseus. *tired smile* 
13:33 Theseus Artistides: (Let me know when it's nap time.) *grin*
13:34 Athenia Glaucon: Nap time! Followed by milk and cookies for the whole class!
13:34 Hetaira Lysias: Oh, don't go there Theseus. *grin* 
13:34 Theseus Artistides: I think there are people (absolutely not me!) who would say our entire modern culture suffers from hubris.
13:35 Athenia Glaucon enters...
13:35 Torrey Philemon: You all are reaffirming my theory that 1 1/2 hours into an "educational" chat people need a breather and want to regress!
13:35 Athenia Glaucon: Not all of us, but there are quite a few who do. 
13:35 Theseus Artistides: Aw, and that's my favorite place, too! *faux pout*
13:35 Hetaira Lysias: Nietsche (sp?) is to blame Theseus; God Is Dead. ;) 
13:36 maia Nestor: I have more of an observation than a question; it is clear to me that out of all the characters Homer did, he truly loved Odysseus the most. Seemed enthralled with the character. 
13:36 Torrey Philemon: Interesting point, Theseus. 
13:36 Athenia Glaucon: No, it was the age of "reason" that did it.
13:36 Hetaira Lysias: Forgot a "z" somewhere along the line. *scratching head* 
13:36 Theseus Artistides: Yeah, I can usually take about two hours of chat like this max.
13:37 Torrey Philemon: Why do you say that, Maia? Because he presents Odysseus in such a positive light?
13:37 Aurora Inca: I think we regressed earlier with the "ways of describing entering manhood" thing.
13:37 Athenia Glaucon: I don't think he does present O. in a positive light, but certainly a more real light.
13:38 Athenia Glaucon: Oh, dear - I'm glad I missed that part, Aurora. :-)
13:38 Theseus Artistides: Maybe we just need to run around the playground.
13:38 maia Nestor: Well as a writer, you know you can fall in love with your character. He made Odysseus the most rounded of all his, imo. A modern, thinking on his feet was clear he admired him enormously. 
13:38 Hetaira Lysias: O seems very human to me, meaty and substantial, like Homer based him on someone he knew. 
13:38 Aurora Inca: *ring* RECESS!!!!
13:38 Aurora Inca: joke
13:39 Hetaira Lysias: I have dibs on the swings! 
13:39 Theseus Artistides: I'm also fascinated by the utter lack of moral stigma attached to lying throughout this book.
13:39 maia Nestor: Someone he knew, or someone he had learned to love; Homer was using a tradition that was already there, right? 
13:40 maia Nestor: Ah Theseus...again, that's because a hero survived. A hero did what he could to effect the survival. He was brave. Lying isn't seen by them as cowardly. 
13:40 Torrey Philemon: Right, Theseus. There's even one point at which Odysseus says he hates men who lie...they're the lowest of the low, or something like that.
13:40 Athenia Glaucon: I get the seesaw!
13:40 Hetaira Lysias: This is true maia. 
13:41 Athenia Glaucon: Maia speaks from the same perspective as Homer - she also loves O. :-)
13:41 Theseus Artistides: (I always go for the monkey bars, myself.  But if Hetaira needs a push or a dozen, I'm happy to offer my services.)
13:41 Hetaira Lysias: I would think truth/falsehoods were very much tied in with honor in that time, so they were more open to lie is not as bad as another type o' thing
13:42 Torrey Philemon: Book 14: 184, Odysseus says, "I hate that man who like the very Gates of Death who/ground down by poverty stoops to peddling lies...
13:42 Hetaira Lysias: I'm so there Theseus, push away. :) 
13:42 Theseus Artistides: I don't think the dishonesty is mysterious, but the way Homer revels in it at times is, for me, fascinating.
13:42 Torrey Philemon: Now folks, it's my avatar who's sitting on a swing! (-:
13:43 maia Nestor: Echoing what Achilles said? But Achilles meant it...
13:43 maia Nestor: Yes,'ve nailed me right! I do love him...
13:44 Athenia Glaucon: You know, H., of the significance of the swing, don't you?
13:44 Torrey Philemon: Odysseus however isn't stoopingto peddling lies. He's rising to the occasion, supposedly for a higher purpose (like mass murder. Did you read the contemporary news story interpretationof Odysseus as a mass murderer?)
13:44 Theseus Artistides: (I can do the hopping from one to the other, pushing both of you.  Hmmm, that's... oh, never mind!)
13:44 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah, but I got dibs on the swings. *sweet smile* And the Enforcer is here to police the playground. 
13:44 maia Nestor: There's a bit in the Iliad when O is facing a force bearing down on him, and he thinks it through; should I stay and be slaughtered? Or run to fight for my cause another day? NO ONE else in Homer ever thinks in those terms...his mind is a wondrous thing. 
13:45 Athenia Glaucon: Is it mass murder to defend your home from a threat. Torrey, you come home and a gang has taken it over. ASre you going to ask them nicely to leave? Or go in with Swat and PBI?
13:45 Athenia Glaucon: Uh, FBI, not PBI
13:45 Hetaira Lysias: I could see that sort of interpretation for Achilles a lot faster than Odysseus. *bemused look* 
13:45 maia Nestor: Odysseus has never done well in later times, Torrey. He's too different. 
13:46 Torrey Philemon: Well, Athenia, Odysseus today would have gone to jail for what he did! A different context.
13:46 maia Nestor: What those people don't realize is that he was COMPELLED to act as he did, in re the suitors. They had committed a crime that has no modern equivalent. He was king, he was host, he had been violated. Probably treason comes close...
13:46 Hetaira Lysias: Or ended up in Waco. ;) 
13:46 Theseus Artistides: (You're not still wearing those heels are you, sweet Hetaira?)
13:46 maia Nestor: And what he did was sanctioned, even mandated, by the gods. 
13:47 Hetaira Lysias: Not at the moment Theseus, don't want to tower over everyone in the room. 
13:48 maia Nestor: Theseus, stop flirting!
13:48 Theseus Artistides: I for one, am really looking forward to Suitorfest '98, as I think Hetaira put it last week.
13:48 maia Nestor: Good girl, know I'm only tall in my own mind. 
13:49 Theseus Artistides: But, then, I'm the representative blood-thirsty male.
13:49 Hetaira Lysias: Shoes are so complicated right now. *blink*  There is nothing but coffee, life and Waco. Uhhh, anyway. 
13:50 Theseus Artistides: I was just worried about catching one in the forehead while pushing this swing.
13:50 Athenia Glaucon: You did promise me you'd wear the boots that go with your secret intelligence force hat...
13:50 Athenia Glaucon: Right - we were talking about Odysseus.
13:50 Hetaira Lysias: Well boots are easier! No straps. 
13:51 Athenia Glaucon: Is there no crime that's the same? I think having your house invaded and you're family held captive is pretty much a timeless crime.
13:51 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah, what Athenia said. I'm lurking and caffienating. Is that a word? 
13:51 Torrey Philemon: Next subject, anybody?
13:51 maia Nestor: If it isn't, it should be, H.
13:52 maia Nestor: Are we through calling O a mass murderer yet?
13:52 Hetaira Lysias: I am, but I was calling Achilles a mass murderer, I think. 
13:52 Athenia Glaucon: I'll back you up M. Last week we called Athena manipulating and it got my hackles up. ;-)
13:52 Theseus Artistides: Oh, I don't think of O as a mass murderer!  I think he's the wrath of the gods embodied!  He's the man!
13:53 Hetaira Lysias: Nooo, that's Aphrodite, Athena is a quasi-trickster. Duh. ;) 
13:53 Aurora Inca: Now there's a title for a modern, updated version "Odysseus, da Man"
13:53 Athenia Glaucon: Achilles isn't a mass mrdereder - he's a sports hero, a figure of great skill. His "sport" happens to be war, in a world where life was cheaper than it is now.
13:54 Hetaira Lysias: Hey yeah Aurora, we can get Busta Rhymes to sing it. ;) 
13:54 Athenia Glaucon: Well said, H. Who says hetaira's are unintelligent. :-)
13:54 Hetaira Lysias: Well now Athenia, you put me in my place. *big grin* I find that sooo attractive. 
13:54 diopan Nestor enters...
13:54 Hetaira Lysias: Achilles BMOC
13:55 Theseus Artistides: (Or maybe it's just that our sports stars are too pampered. *evil grin*)
13:55 Athenia Glaucon: <slap you down> Stop it this instant!
13:55 Torrey Philemon: Ok here's another question: Why does Athena inspire Penelope "to display herself to her suitors, inflame them more?"
13:55 Athenia Glaucon: That too, Theseus.
13:55 Athenia Glaucon: Because she realizes that men think with their willies and will be easier to manipulate.
13:56 maia Nestor: She despises them, Torrey. Wants to torture them...wants them to think their reach won't exceed their grasp before lowering the boom. 
13:56 Hetaira Lysias: Well now, I always thought Penelope had a masterplan that included giving the appearance of interest in the suitors? 
13:56 maia Nestor: good point, Athenia. I was refraining out of deference to Theseus here...
13:56 Theseus Artistides: Hey! I resent that!  It's true, but I resent it nevertheless.
13:56 Torrey Philemon: My impression is it's part of increasing the drama, turning up the heat...and maybe a sign of Penelope beginning to feel alive again.
13:57 Hetaira Lysias: You represent that then, Theseus. :)
13:57 Athenia Glaucon: Don't worry, maia, its my job to speak the truth.
13:58 Hetaira Lysias: brb the coffee machine is whispering things to me...
13:58 Athenia Glaucon: Torrey - ita also one of the few real "powers" women have over men in this saga.
13:58 Theseus Artistides: On the advice of my attorney, Mark Twain, I am going to sit still and silent, at least for now.
13:58 Torrey Philemon: Hetaira's hearing voices...
13:59 Athenia Glaucon: Penelope is going to have to do whatever she can, and its damn littel, to keep control of this situation.
13:59 Athenia Glaucon: Hi diopan!!
13:59 Torrey Philemon: Interesting point, Athenia. Penelope has the power to turn the men on, but hasn't had the power to turn them off...
13:59 Hetaira Lysias: noooo, I'm hearing the coffee pot, big difference. 
14:00 Aurora Inca: Must be the Caffeinius, the god of coffee
14:00 Athenia Glaucon: But when they are turned on, they're more likely to turn on each other and not her.
14:01 diopan Nestor: hi everybody
14:01 Torrey Philemon: Good line, Aurora. (We ought to write a parody on the Greek gods. That's a good one)
14:01 Hetaira Lysias: It's a very distinctive voice, promising me the speedy return of my brain cells if I drink deep. 
14:01 Athenia Glaucon: Its been done - "All hail to the Goddes caffeina, she lives by the coffe machina." She sits on my desk at work.
14:02 Hetaira Lysias: Could be he a Alto? 
14:02 Aurora Inca: Think of the gods we have now! What's important to our culture? Caffeinius would be right up there near the top.
14:02 Torrey Philemon: Personally, I honor Nicotinus
14:02 Aurora Inca: One of the household gods!
14:02 Athenia Glaucon: I also sugges the book "found Goddesses" by two women with stupid names that i forget.
14:02 maia Nestor: Is this what they call digressing? *smoking and sipping my coffee*
14:03 Athenia Glaucon: I'm a big worshipper of Asphalta, who grants us parking places
14:03 Aurora Inca: *sipping my coke - the carbonated version of the God*
14:03 Hetaira Lysias: I would build a shrine to Caffeinius and Nicotinus, make offerings of sugar and cream, deck out my villa with ashtrays. Woah, why I am running with this? 
14:03 Athenia Glaucon: We did need a recess, after all.
14:03 Theseus Artistides: LOL!!! Athenia!
14:03 Athenia Glaucon: Drinking tea...
14:03 maia Nestor: I'm with you, H...except for the sugar part. We diabetics, you know...
14:04 Aurora Inca: And we all are here paying devout attention to Compuerdorus.
14:04 Torrey Philemon: Well my question about Athena turning up Penelope's heat buttons didn't exactly inspire a switch back to serious conversation (-:
14:04 Aurora Inca: meant Computerdorus.
14:04 Athenia Glaucon: "Blessed Asphalta, fair of face, help us find a parking space."
14:05 Hetaira Lysias: Serious conversation is highly overrated, I'm going to find a RAM chip to sacrifice to Computerdorus...
14:05 Aurora Inca: We need a name the gods of the 90's contest, don't you think?
14:05 Athenia Glaucon: You guys obviously haven't found the "office Gods" series, have you? Phonia, Faxus, Computerus, Caffeina...
14:05 Theseus Artistides: (I'm reminded of the line from a Monty Python skit, "Do you have Fifty Ways to Start a Fight, by an Irishman whose name I can't remember?"
14:06 Athenia Glaucon: LOL
14:06 Aurora Inca: Actually, as a high priestess of Machu Picchu, I routinesly enter the main AS chat and sacrifice a cyber-llama to the cybergods before making any major system changes. I have been seen doing this here, really.
14:06 Torrey Philemon: Hey you all could write a really good 20th century parody of the gods...
14:06 Hetaira Lysias: Yep Theseus, I know that one! *laughing* 
14:06 Hetaira Lysias: That sounds, erm, messy Aurora. 
14:07 Aurora Inca: It's only cyber-blood.
14:07 Athenia Glaucon: As an oracle here, I tend to keep the sacrifices small...
14:07 Aurora Inca: I move we name the new gods as part of our Calliope discussion board. (a good way to generate interest).
14:07 Hetaira Lysias: Oh well then, nevermind. *grin*  I think I might sacrifice a mainframe though, before major system changes. 
14:08 Theseus Artistides: That's a great line, Aurora!  "It's only cyber blood."
14:08 Torrey Philemon: Well, are we sacrificing "sacred bull" here?
14:08 Athenia Glaucon enters...
14:08 Hetaira Lysias: Oh boy, Mithraism can't be far behind...
14:08 Aurora Inca: I am well-rested, and therefore silly, today.
14:08 Athenia Glaucon: I entered? Cool! <looking around for me>
14:09 Torrey Philemon: Or should I say, should we continue with the BULL or STEER the conversation back to the Odyssey?
14:09 Athenia Glaucon: I am always silly...well rested or not.
14:09 maia Nestor: You're so trickful, A, as my nephew says...
14:09 Hetaira Lysias: Athenia like a good entrance, or two. 
14:09 Aurora Inca: Well,is anybody going to second the motion, or is it too silly?
14:09 Theseus Artistides: What are followers of Mithraism called, by the way?  Mithradists? 
14:10 Hetaira Lysias: I'll second it! 
14:10 Aurora Inca: *groan*@Torrey
14:10 maia Nestor: Steer away...
14:10 Athenia Glaucon: I second! What were we talking about?
14:10 Aurora Inca: Maybe when we get it together, we could submit it to the Glaux.
14:10 Torrey Philemon: Aurora, I like the idea of doing more with this naming of the gods, but maybe not on Calliope. It sort of fits mythquest.
14:10 Hetaira Lysias: Sacrificing a mainframe to some bulls, duh. 
14:10 maia Nestor: Penelope torturing the suitors...and she got some great gifts out of it, too. My kind of gal...
14:11 Aurora Inca: I kind of thought of it as a creative outgrowth of our Odyssey stuff, but whatever...
14:12 Hetaira Lysias: Oh yeah, that too. *nod* 
14:12 Torrey Philemon: Ok another question. So why does Penelope decide finally to marry? Social obligation...because it was Odysseus' wish (when T came of age), and for the sake of Telemachus and the preservation of her house?
14:12 Torrey Philemon: (Aurora, it's a good idea and could be a lot of fun!)
14:12 Theseus Artistides: Okay, what does everyone think of the implication that the serving girls who have "misbehaved" are going to be killed too?
14:13 maia Nestor: I am so glad to have really met you, Aurora! You are too funny....
14:13 Torrey Philemon: Their guilt is primarily in sleeping with the suitors, right?
14:13 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah, what maia said, your keen Aurora! 
14:14 Athenia Glaucon: I think its harsh - but they may bear sons to these suitors, who will be obliged to take revenge....its got to be done.
14:14 maia Nestor: They were betraying their mistress, Torrey. Again, not just their mistress...but their queen. 
14:14 Aurora Inca: Thank you. *bowing humbly*
14:14 Athenia Glaucon: Yea Aurora!! Cha cha cha (japanese for Ra ra ra!)
14:15 Theseus Artistides: I'm all for exterminating the suitors, but do they have to get rid of the girls?  Particularly the really *friendly* ones?
14:15 Hetaira Lysias: Those wacky Japanese. Cha cha cha? 
14:15 maia Nestor: Are we gonna cha cha now? *looking about hopefully*
14:15 Athenia Glaucon: One, two, cha cha cha...
14:15 Torrey Philemon: GROAN, Theseus! 
14:15 Hetaira Lysias: They fall pretty low on the food chain Theseus, despite our present day feelings about it. 
14:15 maia Nestor: Good point, Athenia...but I think it's even simpler than this. Those who betray must pay for it. They did the crime, they were now out of time. 
14:15 Athenia Glaucon: I've been watching ALOT of anime recently. <embarrased smile>
14:16 maia Nestor: *thus spaketh Testosteronus Aristides*
14:16 Hetaira Lysias: My condolences Athenia....don't you find that big pupil thing a lil' unnerving? 
14:16 Aurora Inca: And I thought I was going to come here today and be SERIOUS.
14:16 Torrey Philemon: You know one of the suitors was supposedly a good guy too. Amphinomos. Penelope likes him best, and he's the most civilized, but he's killed too.
14:17 Hetaira Lysias: Blame Cafiwhatshisname, he did it Aurora. 
14:17 Athenia Glaucon: Not really, and i love the bizarre subtexts.
14:17 maia Nestor: The best intentions gaft on agley, Aurora. ????
14:17 Athenia Glaucon: Good or bad, he's still an invader...
14:17 Aurora Inca: Well, if Penelope likes him, he's the biggest threat to O.
14:18 Theseus Artistides: Oh, see!  I never even thought of that name!  However, Athenia's vengeance slant makes me feel much better about the whole thing.
14:18 maia Nestor: Because he was part of it, Torrey. He could have left, he could have refused to take part, but he stayed. 
14:18 Athenia Glaucon: Its not vengeance - its justice.
14:19 maia Nestor: The lesson had to be absolute. And remember, they were all plotting Telemachos' murder...and they would have killed O if they had been given the chance. 
14:19 Torrey Philemon: That's what i figured, maia. He missed his chance to save himself.
14:19 Athenia Glaucon: I'm not sqeamish about blood. I have ethics, but from O's point of view - he's got to go.
14:19 Hetaira Lysias: The suitors got all sorts of warnings too, how many omens do you need to figure it out? "Get out, it's evil!" painted on the wall? Sheesh. 
14:19 Theseus Artistides: Is that line from "Deathwish" Athenia?
14:19 maia Nestor: Yes Athenia...yes! Hey, all that anime isn't doing you any real harm, thankfully....*grin* 
14:20 maia Nestor: From Athena's pov, too. 
14:20 maia Nestor: Good point, Hetaira!
14:20 Torrey Philemon: What would Telemachus' situation be if Penelope had married one of the suitors (we could write an alternate scenario too). I mean, would he still have been a threat...inheritor of the royal house or something like that?
14:20 Hetaira Lysias: anime harmful? Nahhh, just stilted in the dialogue department. 
14:21 Theseus Artistides: LOL - Very good point, Hetaira!
14:21 Athenia Glaucon: <swinging a mean stick> I am NOT bloodthirsty! Okay, I am. :-)
14:21 Athenia Glaucon: Not the stuff I'm watching, its damn twisted. 
14:21 maia Nestor: Oh yes, Torrey...he would have been history so damned fast...
14:21 Torrey Philemon: Someone want to write an alternate script? What would have happened IF...
14:22 maia Nestor: They were after the kingship after all, and made noises that he could keep his house, but that never would have happened. 
14:22 Athenia Glaucon: Good question Torrey - was possession 9/10 of the law?
14:22 Hetaira Lysias: Personally, I'll take a nice Aeon Flux any day of the week. She's a babe!
14:22 Torrey Philemon: So Penelope's choosing to marry wouldn't have helped Telemachus after all? It would only have fulfilled her obligation to follow Odysseus' guidance?
14:23 Athenia Glaucon: It definitely wouldn't have helped Telemachus if she had a child by her new husband!
14:23 Theseus Artistides: Uh-oh, something's not right here...
14:24 maia Nestor: No, it wouldn't have helped him in the long run at all. And she knew it. She was quite brilliant, I think; achieving that exquisite balance. Once the suitors made it clear that they wouldn't be leaving, she kept it all together in an exemplary balancing act. 
14:25 maia Nestor: Once one of the suitors was king, regardless of offspring, Telemachos would have been a threat. 
14:25 Theseus Artistides enters...
14:25 diopan Nestor: can't it be that she lost hope of him coming and got lonely?
14:26 Hetaira Lysias: And her test for the suitors was pretty inventive. 
14:26 maia Nestor: No, diopan...I think she makes it clear that she really despises them. They dishonor her, don't they? They don't listen...they don't leave when she asks them to. 
14:26 Torrey Philemon: (Who could ever get lonely enough to marry one of those pigs?)
14:27 maia Nestor: Well guys, it's been a slice but I have to take my leave. Theseus, you behave. 
14:27 Torrey Philemon: And she overhears them talking about killing Telemachus. She actually starts spying on them, overhearing their conversation.
14:28 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah, what maia said, I need to blow this popstand too. 
14:28 Athenia Glaucon: Oh no!!!'re always the soul of the conversation? Who's going to keep Theseus and Hetaira under control? :-)
14:28 maia Nestor: Later, everyone!
14:28 Athenia Glaucon: Bye!
14:28 Torrey Philemon: So you all want to officially end?
14:29 Athenia Glaucon: Yeah, maybe not a bad idea...
14:29 Hetaira Lysias: I'm not controllable. *mild smile* 
14:29 maia Nestor exits...
14:29 Aurora Inca: I was just thinking that I need to be moving on. Perhaps I can manage a more serious mode for the next chat.
14:29 Athenia Glaucon: Bye H.! I'm sure I'll run into you soon. <s>
14:30 Athenia Glaucon: Okay, I guess I'll go too....bye!
14:30 Torrey Philemon: I need to go soon myself. Is there anything anyone wants to bring up in closing? And anyone willing to lead the next/last chat?
14:30 Hetaira Lysias: Oh yeah, I'm going to be at your open house with my video tapes and phone transcripts, remember? 
14:30 Hetaira Lysias: Later folks! 
14:30 Athenia Glaucon: I look forward to it...
14:30 Hetaira Lysias exits...
14:30 Athenia Glaucon exits...
14:31 Torrey Philemon: Who's still here?
14:31 Aurora Inca: I am, but about to leave.
14:32 Torrey Philemon: Ok, well then I guess we're over for today!
14:32 Aurora Inca: OK. Bye. I'll try to be at the next/last one.
14:32 Aurora Inca exits...
14:33 Torrey Philemon: Goodbye Aurora and anyone else who is here ...

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