The Odyssey Chats at Ancient Sites
Odyssey Chat Transcripts
Greek and Roman Mythology Pages from Ancient Sites by Tracy Marks
NOTE: Many Community members of "Athens" at Ancient Sites (which folded in 1999) participated in biweekly chats on the classics, including the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. Later, several of us continued with the chats, studying The Metamorphoses by Ovid and other texts related to ancient Greek and Roman history. Many of these chats have been posted online by Tracy Marks (alias Torrey Philemon from Ancient Sites). Each participant maintains his/her own copyright; this material may not be reproduced.
CHAT FIVE: Odyssey, Books 17-20
11:47 Ioannis Nestor enters...
11:56 Theseus Artistides enters...
Artistides: *whoosh!* Here I am!
Artistides: Hello Ioannis.
Nestor: Hey Theseus, what's up?
11:58 Torrey Philemon enters...
Nestor: Hi Torrey!
Artistides: Not much yet, apparently. Ah! There she is!
Philemon: Hey folks. Two people here already?
Nestor: I guess Maia is in her way too...
Artistides: Another threesome to start.
Philemon: Just noticed she's on the comm panel. Hope she's coming.
Artistides: I have an opening thought, whenever we're ready to go...
12:01 Aurora Inca enters...
Inca: Hello! Happy Ides!
Artistides: I dropped her a gram hint a couple of minutes ago.
Nestor: Hi Aurora...Theseus go ahead!
Philemon: Welcome Aurora. And go ahead Theseus!
Artistides: Hello Aurora!
Philemon: (Ioannis, are you a clone?)
Artistides: Well it struck me that the odyssey part of the Odyssey
only really accounts for about one-sixth of the book. It seems to
me this isn't about a fantastic, dangerous voyage really, as it is about
separation and home-coming.
Nestor: I guess so... :)
Nestor: Yep...The great NOSTOS thing...
Nestor: The feeling of missing home and wishing urgently to go back...
Philemon: That's right, isn't it? I hadn't remembered that (from reading
it 20 years ago) that so much IS about homecoming....We tend to think more
of the "odyssey".
Artistides: I mean it isn't about that as much as it is about this.
Philemon: So much is about Odysseus' preparation to confront the suitors...
Nestor: But every adventure and "odyssey" is about that!
Artistides: Well, that's the part that generally makes for more "exciting"
12:06 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
Philemon: Gee, it might not have sounded so interesting if it was called
"The Beggar in Disguise" or "The Great Disguise" instead of the Odyssey.
Nestor: Hi Ricardex.
Cornelius: helo all, just a quick run in and a reminder, the balloting
for the new books to be read as a group is still open so......
Philemon: Hello Ricardex. Hope you'll stay awhile, and "come home"
here rather than "odyssey"
Inca: I voted! (I'm a good girl)
Nestor: I voted too...
Cornelius: Well I may be back the combination of three AS id's an d
real world demands today is pressing.
Philemon: We're all the ones that are paying attention. I think FB
like all groups has a lot of inactive members.
Artistides: I voted! But then, I'll bet anyone who read my posts
Cornelius: Yes, well speaking to the converted then....
Artistides: Maia says she'll get here. Well, that's what she
12:10 Ricardex Cornelius exits...
Nestor: What's the reason of joining a group if you don't patrticipate
Artistides: "Preaching to the choir"
Philemon: Ok folks. I posted about eight questions about books 17-20
late last night on our FB board, but before I bring any of them up, what
Artistides: Well, just to be kind, I imagine people think they'll have
more time to devote to something than it turns out they really do.
Nestor: I may be boring, but what about the archaeology and history
Inca: I'm behind on my reading (as usual). Have you already discussed
the swineherd. I was wondering why Homer speaks to him directly. "And then
Philemon: (Or would someone else like to have a chance at facilitating
today. Theseus, what if you did the next and last meeting next week?)
Artistides: I didn't get to read your latest questions, Torrey, as
AOL wouldn't let me into AS this morning.
Inca: Now, that would interest me Ioannis, as I am into archeology,
but I don't know much about that reagion/time period.
Philemon: Didn't realize he did that, Aurora. He presents the swineherd
differently than the other characters? (It's certainly a new context for
pigs, not like Circe)
12:14 maia Nestor enters...
Nestor: Well, the time period should be the Dark Ages (10th-8th centuries
Nestor: Hey maia! :)
Artistides: Hi Maia!
Philemon: Welcome Maia
Nestor: Hello, everyone.
Inca: He sure does. Almost as if Eumaeus were in the room listening
to the tale.
Artistides: He doesn't do anything different with the swineherd in
my version. Maybe it's translation specific.
Philemon: It occurred to me last night. Eumaeus, Eurycleia. The good
people have names beginning eu, which means good, doesn't it?
Inca: An example "And your answer, Eumaeus". It says things like that
in mine. My trans. is Lawrence.
Inca: I think it actually means "true"
Philemon: Some of the bad people like Antinous have names beginning
Nestor: I suggest you 2 very interesting papers. The first is "Gifts
in Homer" by J.T. Hooker and the other"Social diversity in Dark Age Greece"
by J. Whitley.
Nestor: Eumaus, o my eumaeus, is obviously very special to Odysseus.
He's part of the Ithakan glue, I think...holds it together for O.
Artistides: (The only reason I don't volunteer to lead the discussion
is because I can rarely guarantee a chunk of my Sunday, let alone three
hours. I would be happy to do it, but my wife and son...)
Nestor: Hooker's Mycenaean Greece is also a wonderful book, Io.
Nestor: It's a MUST maia!
Philemon: Aurora, can you give us a passage number where Odysseus is
speaking directly to Eumaeus.
Nestor: Torrey, was it you who mentioned pigs? They were staples of
the economy; none of the modern, negative connotations.
Artistides: Well, O speaks directly to Eumaeus all the time.
I think it's Homer who's the issue.
Inca: I don't have numbers in my trans., but it's all through Book
14, at least. I haven't gotten much further than that.
Philemon: I was just concentrating the pigs of Eumaeus with the pigs
Philemon: contrasting, I mean.
Nestor: OIC ...
Philemon: Here's one of the questions I posted, folks. If Odysseus
is at war 10 years and journeying for 10 years, and Telemachus is now growing
his first beard, don't we have time discrepancy? OR (-: was puberty really
late in ancient times? He's got to be age 20-21 right?
Inca: Maybe he was a late bloomer?
Nestor: This is a minor discrepancy I think...
Artistides: This is not the first time I've gotten the impression Homer
is a bit free and easy with the time figuring.
12:24 Gorgo Cleomenes enters...
Nestor: Well, some men grow beards at different times...I think it
was just a reference to his manhood coming into play.
Philemon: Yet there is a reference to Odysseus being on Calypso's isle
when the Telemachus story begins....So there may have been still a year
to go before the conclusion. But probably only a few months.
Philemon: Welcome Gorgo! Feel free to join in. Our focus is books 17-20,
but not exclusively.
Nestor: Hi Gorgo!
Cleomenes: Um, thanks Torrey. I've already been to a few FB discussions.
Artistides: Now, isn't there evidence that the onset of puberty is
actually occurring earlier and earlier?
12:29 Ioannis Nestor enters...
Philemon: At what age do men/boys grow beards now, Theseus? (got to
ask a male about this!)
Nestor: Sorry to interrupt guys but are you interested to see The Odyssey
written in LINEAR B?
Artistides: By which I mean, maybe Telemachus didn't start growing
his beard until he was about twenty.
Inca: Some of my high school sophomores actually have decent beards,
and they haven't been held back any grades.
Inca: (but MOST of them don't)
Nestor: Torrey, that's just too speculative. My brother was nearly
thirty, my husband 20. Some guys have facial hair at 13.
Artistides: I've seen kids with facial hair at thirteen, but I wouldn't
say that's common.
Philemon: Well given that Telemachus at one point says he's not sure
Odysseus is really his father, one begins to wonder (grin!), though I'm
sure that's not Homer's intent!
Inca: I think in Telem.'s case it's figurative. I think he's kind of
late accepting his adult responsibilities.
Nestor: I think we have to accept the bearded reference for a visualization
that he'd reached manhood.
Artistides: (I hate those linear Bs! I think a B should have
a couple of nice curves!)
Philemon: Ok. Enough said then. What else do you all want to address?
Nestor: He doesn't say he's not sure, he says, does anyone really know
who his father is? My mother says so, but how do I know?
Cleomenes: Well, it's quite obvious from the earlier books that Telemachos
is moving into his adult stages. He learns proper etiquette when with Nestor.
Artistides: Yes, his query is more philosophical than personal.
Philemon: Ioannis, I opened your link in another window and got the
index for the Daresbury Synchrotron Light Source.
12:35 Ioannis Nestor enters...
Artistides: (Ah-ha! I suspected Ioannis was one of those Synchrotronians!)
Philemon: The Synchrotronians, huh? Must be another part of Odysseus'
Nestor: Try the above!
Artistides: Okay, speaking of other parts, have we done with Telemachus's
Philemon: It works, Ioannis!
Nestor: It's very interesting!!!
Philemon: So next subject....?
Nestor: I'm off guys. See ya all later...
Artistides: (Oh, I can't resist...! I wonder what the history
of literature would have been like if the Greeks had settled on some other
physical sign of a youth's maturation.)
Cleomenes: Bye Ioannis.
Inca: Somehow saying a youth with down upon his chin sound more poetic
than "a youth whose voice cracks"
Philemon: Glad you came by, Ioannis.
Nestor: LOL Theseus!
Nestor: Bye, Ioannis!
Philemon: LOL Aurora (or wet dreams, even!)
Inca: You mean "a youth with stains upon his chiton"? (sorry, had to
Artistides: "Now the time had come when nightly did Telemachus moisten
Nestor: Torrey, as the host, I'm telling you, you can't lose control
Inca: *giggling uncontrollably*
Artistides: Okay! I'm sorry I started it, I admit!
Inca: *resumes a serious demeanor*
Artistides: Quick Torrey, give us one of your questions!
Nestor: *beaming at Aurora*
Philemon: (Given how informal the chat was last week, maia, I thought
perhaps I should be a little looser! I was just debating whether or not
to restate Theseus comment as "Now the time...when nightly did Telemachus
Nestor: Informal? My chat?
Philemon: Ok here's another question. Why do you think Penelope set
up the archery contest, instead of directly choosing one of the suitors...)
Nestor: I think there could be any number of answers to that question...
Artistides: Oh, that's easy... She thought they would all fail!
That archery stunt is incredibly difficult and she thought only O could
Cleomenes: Um, probably because she was cognizant of the power of the
bow and the fact it was somewhat divinely inspired.
Philemon: You're on, Maia!
Inca: That way she didn't have to accept responsibility for the choice.
It coud be in the hands of the gods or fate. Then if she was unhappy, she
wouldn't have to blame herself.
Nestor: Firstly, and this seems to me to be the most obvious, the Mycenaeans
were very contest-driven. It would be the easiest solution in many ways...sort
of, hey, he won fair and square.
Philemon: So it was another delaying tactic?...And if someone did meet
the challenge, it would be someone who at least had one similarity to Odysseus?
Cleomenes: And by this time, she is told--not by an excellent source--that
the suitors will meet death.
Nestor: Next, I echo Gorgo, and Aurora. Also, it ocurred to me that
Athena put it into her mind. Athena had that agenda...
Philemon: Good point, Aurora. She could choose without choosing!
Artistides: Yes, Torrey. That's what I think exactly.
Cleomenes: Plus, one has to wonder if Penelope suspects the beggar
is Odysseus. You have a Mycenaean queen telling a very personal dream to
someone she barely knows. Hmmm
Inca: Like "eeny meeny miny mo, catch a suitor by the toe"
Artistides: Incidentally, I can't tell you how hard it was to stop
reading at the end of book 20.
Philemon: My own impression is that Penelope has given up on Odysseus'
eventual return. She says that repeatedly...she just doesn't believe that
Odysseus is still alive, even when told so over and over again.
Nestor: Yes, Gorgo....REAMS have been written on that, did Penelope
Nestor: I don't think it's that she doesn't believe, Torrey, or that
she doesn't want to believe...she desperately wants to believe...but she's
afraid to hope.
Cleomenes: My personal theory is that she keeps the knowledge to herself
so that she can protect her oikos.
Philemon: Well said, Maia. It's too hard to have one's hopes repeatedly
disappointed. It's easier to give them up and just accept the despair.
Cleomenes: No, Penelope always had hope for the return of Odysseus.
12:52 Athenia Glaucon enters...
Glaucon: Hello my friends!
Philemon: Gorgo, but over and over again, she says, Odysseus is dead,
Odysseus won't return, or something like that, whenever she's told that
Nestor: Well, maybe it wasn't that well said, Gorgo. Of course she
hoped, she just was afraid to allow herself such a luxury, you know? Like
being two brained...you want it so badly, you're afraid to trust it.
Nestor: Auntie Athenia!
Philemon: Hello Auntie Athenia!
Glaucon: Yes, yes, I'm here to dispense advice, but not wisdom. ;-)
Cleomenes: She's realist. She's almost the double of Odysseus and she
has to maintain her oikos and the Ithacan line. She can't let herself be
taken by flights of fancy. Plus, characters aren't two-dimensional. They
say one thing, but think another.
Artistides: Doesn't anyone want to ask why the axe-arrow trick is so
hard, or is everyone comfortable with the ballistics already?
Philemon: So Athena/Athenia, don't you think Odysseus was quick to
trust you after you had supposedly abandoned him for so many years, because
Artistides: <==Apparently a frustrated physics instructor.
Glaucon: No, Torrey, I don't think Athena abandoned Odysseus. There's
a point where every teacher needs to let the student go out on their own,
make their own mistakes, then return for more training.
Cleomenes: Oh yes, Torrey I urge to look at 19.125. Her speech
there is quite enlightening.
Inca: Having some hands-on experience with early weapons, I would just
trust Homer's word that it's hard, but if you want to share, go ahead....
Philemon: Theseus, doesn't it appear that just stringing the bow was
the hardest part? Though Telemachus almost had it, when Odysseus restrained
him from succeeding (will look, Gorgo)
Nestor: The axe scenario is still one of hot debate, Theseus. There
are any number of theories.
Glaucon: Stringing the bow is about technique, shooting it is about
skill, they are related, but nont synonymous.
Nestor: It's a composite bow, Torrey. There's a trick to it. You can't
just string it. You have to be seated, put it across your leg...the Odyssey
show on NBC got that part right, at least.
Nestor: And of course there would be a trick to it....highlighting
the cleverness of O, the man of many turns.
Artistides: Thank you, Aurora! Well, like any projectile an arrow
travels in an arc. (That's why you generally don't aim straight at
a target, but above it.) The task here is fit that arc through a
series of really very small openings all set in a line. To accomplish
this, the arrow would have to be launched with incredible velocity, requiring
a very powerful bow, and a very strong archer.
Philemon: The suitors apparently aren't as strong as Telemachus. They've
been spending all their time eating and partying....
Glaucon: The test thus test two different skills...power of mind and
then arm. None of the suitors would be able to do that.
Inca: That explains why I always miss!
Artistides: And the stringing it part is past book 20 - somebody's
Philemon: Patience. It requires a lot of patience and attention to
detail, which Odysseus has...
Nestor: The book doesn't explain that, Theseus. About the stringing...that's
been posited by Homeric scholars ever since.
Glaucon: Not just patience - technique. to do it effortlessly, as O.
does, takes practice, which takes patience.
Glaucon: Heck, Maia, I have trouble stringing a regular 70lb. recurve.
Nestor: A, I find it hard to believe you have trouble with anything!
Artistides: Surely she is being modest.
Glaucon: Nope - just honest. :-)
Glaucon: Theseus, NO ONE has ever accused me of being modest.
Artistides: Good! Personally, I think it's an ugly trait.
Nestor: NEVER modest...but she can be a lil bit self-effacing. There's
always womb for improvement, as Auntie might say...
Artistides: Anyway, next question! *grin*
Philemon: Ok here's another question. Penelope's dream. I have trouble
with the interpretation of it, because it begins that Penelope dreams she
loved to watch the geese and then an eagle killed them. She loved to watch
the geese? But she didn't love to watch the suitors...
Glaucon: So, why *did* Odysseus stop telemachus from becoming the man
of the house and string the bow?
Philemon: (Odysseus wanted HIS own revenge...when the time was right,
and he had the situation set up to kill all the suitors...right?)
Artistides: I didn't get the dream either, Torrey. And that's
what I meant about beyond book 20, Athenia. *grin* (I think it's
just so that he can get that weapon into his hands, but I haven't read
that far yet.)
Nestor: I think it was part of Athena's plan, too. The slight was against
his house, he had to take the revenge. Show everyone that he was still
13:10 Myrrhine Solon enters...
Inca: Dreams sometimes start like that. An ordinary scene, and then
the symbolism starts to kick in. Maybe it was an ordinary dream to begin
with, and then the omen-giving gods used it to get their message across.
13:11 Hetaira Lysias enters...
Artistides: Or, forgive me for going out on a Freudian limb, maybe
Penelope's subconscious is betraying the idea that she might like all the
attention the birds have been giving her.
Philemon: Welcome, Myrhhine...Well, it's puzzling. My first impression
of the dream is that the geese are something she treasures, and that the
eagle is the "bad guy". The interpretation given then reverses it
Lysias: Hey there folks. *groggy smile*
Glaucon: Welcome to the world of light, Hetaira. <g>
Nestor: BTW, gang, Gorgo sends her regrets.
Philemon: Heh heh Maia might dispute that, Theseus! (the old Is-Penelope-at-all-at-fault
Inca: Theseus - good point. Who isn't flattered by attention a little
bit, even if unwanted, if it isn't TOO annoying.
Lysias: Hey Athenia, Theseus, maia and anyone else I can't focus properly
on at the moment. :)
Glaucon: Maybe, Torrey, she doesn't "enjoy" watching the geese as much
as she finds them amusing.
Nestor: Now come on, Torrey, I never said she was without fault! She'd
be perfect then, and perfection is boring.
Artistides: Now, how am I going to keep the goofy grin off my face?
Nestor: Hetaira stayed up way too late last night partying with me.
Philemon: I'm partly teasing you, Maia!
Lysias: Why would that be Freudian Theseus? *curious look*
Artistides: Whoa, the dream interp. thing was just an idle thought!
Nestor: Just partly, Torrey? *grin*
Lysias: Dream interpretation by way of Freud is pretty limited, he
always took it back to the basics; penis-envy, id and unresolved childhood
Artistides: Ah, then I am mistaken... The subconscious is hardly my
Philemon: Fagles: I keep 20 geese in the house, from the water trough/
they come and peck their wheat - I love to watchm them. But down from a
mountain swooped this great hook-beaked eagle.
Lysias: Now a Jungian interpretation of the dream might uncover some
interesting archetypes. Birds in particular could be seen as freedom, flight
from responsibility, so on. :)
Nestor: And the conscious, Theseus?
Artistides: And Freud is even further down there on my list of specialties.
Artistides: I'm certainly better with the conscious.
Lysias: I think he might have even said birds were higher thought processes.
Philemon: The eagle is so often an omen....divine intervention.
Glaucon: And geese are certainly earthy birds, commonplace, where eagles
were more lofty, more "of the Gods."
Nestor: As a rule, I always defer to oracles and hetairae.
Inca: Domesticity vs. the Hunter. The stay-at-home suitors defeated
by the homecoming warrior?
Philemon: I get hung up on the part about "she loved to watch" the
geese ( I'm a dream therapist and lead dream interpretation groups
in real life, so I can get carried away with this)
Lysias: Divine intervention in that time, the higher mind in this time?
There was no ego, super-ego or anima/animus in Homer's day. *grin*
Glaucon: Hetairae first - they know everything.
Philemon: Maia, that's a great "signature line"!
Glaucon: But that might be Fagles's words, not Penelope's. Anyone else
got a different translation?
Lysias: Yeah actually, I just saw Aurora's comment, I like that.
Nestor: And that's a good point, Hetaira...there were omens in Homer's
time, but certainly no consciousness of the subconscious.
Philemon: Hetaira, I'd think it was all there, they just called it
by another name. Hubris for one..
Lysias: I have Fitzgerald's around here *searching*
Inca: What book is the "loved to watch" in? I haven't read that far....
Artistides: I'm thinking 19.
Philemon: There's some theory isn't there Maia about the development
of the human brain since Homer's time. Like the right brain and left brain
were configured differently...and what was in the "unconscious" was once
projected onto gods/omens and actually heard as "voices". Forget the source,
there's some book on the subject...
Lysias: So Hubris in that day an age translates to what in common day?
Not being true to your higher mind?
Philemon: In Fagles, it's 19:606...
Glaucon: That's pretty much the way it is in most aboriginal cultures.
Folks who "see" or "hear" things are touched by the gods.
Nestor: Hubris is just being insolent towards the gods. Well, Torrey,
I don't ascribe to that theory...human evolution works far more slowly
than that. It's just cultural differences...
Nestor: Are you thinking of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, Torrey?
Inca: OK. Lawrence says "and I love wtaching them"
Philemon: I brought up hubris in reference the comment about no conception
of EGO or the unconscious...
Glaucon: My ancient translation says that the geese "gladden her eyes."
Inca: I've read that, too, Torrey. Though I don't remember where. And
those that still hear them as voices, we treat with medication.
Philemon: That may be the source, Maia.
Nestor: In simpler times, things were simpler.
Artistides: I agree with Maia on the cultural vs. evolution aspect.
(But apparently, I have nothing new to add.)
Glaucon: Its by S.O. Andrew from the 1953 Everyman's library. My mom
or dad stole it from the public library. ;-)
Nestor: Like Agamemnon, when he is trying, in the Iliad to say why
he acted in such a way, just shrugs his shoulders and says ATE....
Nestor: They had a very simple heroic code, and that is how they lived.
None of this, my father left me, my mother was a tramp....they didn't THINK
in those terms.
Lysias: Yes, I know, and I was asking for clarification Torrey, you
threw hubris out there, quantify it for me in present day psychology so
that I know I'm getting the message correctly.
Lysias: Please. :)
Philemon: My reference to hubris was just an aside. Just musing on
different conceptions of ego, in different ways, at different times...
Lysias: Okay, just checking. I thought you had something specific in
Artistides: I thought hubris was overweaning arrogance, in particular
in relation to a mortal and the gods and/or fate.
Nestor: Yes, just real insolence. Believing in yourself to the exclusion
of the gods.
Artistides: Is it time for another question?
Lysias: I think we established that Theseus, I was actually thinking
about how hubris works in post depth-psychology minds. :)
Lysias: i.e. would hubris be someone with control issues? *grin*
Glaucon: We'd probably call it sociopathy.
Philemon: Anyone else want to put out a question? I always have a reservoir
of them, but let's see what you all have.
Artistides: "post depth-psychology minds"?
Lysias: Meglomania Athenia?
Lysias: Yeah Theseus...post Freud/Jung.
Artistides: Oh, I get it. Never mind.
Glaucon: No, because that allows for other people, even if only as
tools. sociopathy is about "me."
Artistides: I seem to be somewhat slow today.
Lysias: I'm with ya Theseus. *tired smile*
Artistides: (Let me know when it's nap time.) *grin*
Glaucon: Nap time! Followed by milk and cookies for the whole class!
Lysias: Oh, don't go there Theseus. *grin*
Artistides: I think there are people (absolutely not me!) who would
say our entire modern culture suffers from hubris.
13:35 Athenia Glaucon enters...
Philemon: You all are reaffirming my theory that 1 1/2 hours into an
"educational" chat people need a breather and want to regress!
Glaucon: Not all of us, but there are quite a few who do.
Artistides: Aw, and that's my favorite place, too! *faux pout*
Lysias: Nietsche (sp?) is to blame Theseus; God Is Dead. ;)
Nestor: I have more of an observation than a question; it is clear
to me that out of all the characters Homer did, he truly loved Odysseus
the most. Seemed enthralled with the character.
Philemon: Interesting point, Theseus.
Glaucon: No, it was the age of "reason" that did it.
Lysias: Forgot a "z" somewhere along the line. *scratching head*
Artistides: Yeah, I can usually take about two hours of chat like this
Philemon: Why do you say that, Maia? Because he presents Odysseus in
such a positive light?
Inca: I think we regressed earlier with the "ways of describing entering
Glaucon: I don't think he does present O. in a positive light, but
certainly a more real light.
Glaucon: Oh, dear - I'm glad I missed that part, Aurora. :-)
Artistides: Maybe we just need to run around the playground.
Nestor: Well as a writer, you know you can fall in love with your character.
He made Odysseus the most rounded of all his, imo. A modern, thinking on
his feet human...it was clear he admired him enormously.
Lysias: O seems very human to me, meaty and substantial, like Homer
based him on someone he knew.
Inca: *ring* RECESS!!!!
Lysias: I have dibs on the swings!
Artistides: I'm also fascinated by the utter lack of moral stigma attached
to lying throughout this book.
Nestor: Someone he knew, or someone he had learned to love; Homer was
using a tradition that was already there, right?
Nestor: Ah Theseus...again, that's because a hero survived. A hero
did what he could to effect the survival. He was brave. Lying isn't seen
by them as cowardly.
Philemon: Right, Theseus. There's even one point at which Odysseus
says he hates men who lie...they're the lowest of the low, or something
Glaucon: I get the seesaw!
Lysias: This is true maia.
Glaucon: Maia speaks from the same perspective as Homer - she also
loves O. :-)
Artistides: (I always go for the monkey bars, myself. But if
Hetaira needs a push or a dozen, I'm happy to offer my services.)
Lysias: I would think truth/falsehoods were very much tied in with
honor in that time, so they were more open to interpretation....one lie
is not as bad as another type o' thing
Philemon: Book 14: 184, Odysseus says, "I hate that man who like the
very Gates of Death who/ground down by poverty stoops to peddling lies...
Lysias: I'm so there Theseus, push away. :)
Artistides: I don't think the dishonesty is mysterious, but the way
Homer revels in it at times is, for me, fascinating.
Philemon: Now folks, it's my avatar who's sitting on a swing! (-:
Nestor: Echoing what Achilles said? But Achilles meant it...
Nestor: Yes, Athenia...you've nailed me right! I do love him...
Glaucon: You know, H., of the significance of the swing, don't you?
Philemon: Odysseus however isn't stooping to peddling lies. He's rising
to the occasion, supposedly for a higher purpose (like mass murder. Did
you read the contemporary news story interpretation of Odysseus as a mass
Artistides: (I can do the hopping from one to the other, pushing both
of you. Hmmm, that's... oh, never mind!)
continue with chat
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